Author Topic: Carving for the Artistically Challenged  (Read 3206 times)

Offline JLayne

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Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« on: December 07, 2019, 03:17:52 PM »
All,

Thinking about trying my hand at some modest carving on a build for the first time. The reason I have not attempted it before is mostly because the instructional materials I have seen to date all show the instructor sketching out the pattern on the stock freehand. As for me, I don't believe I would do very well drawing some of the patterns I see on rifle stocks even if I were to attempt it on paper at a desk, much less on the rounded surface of a stock. So my question is, does anyone out there know of a technique they would be willing to share by which patterns could be traced say from a book or photo and then transferred to a stock to use as a guide for stabbing in? For those who have seen or undergone the process (guilty), I was thinking of something along the lines of how a tattoo artist transfers the outline for his work to the customer's skin using a stencil that he then uses as his guide when tattooing the subject. Thanks in advance.

Jay

Offline smart dog

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2019, 03:49:38 PM »
Hi,
Start here and keeping scrolling down through the pages:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-isaac-haines-rifle-kit.116533/page-3

I urge you to practice copying other work until you can draw and have some skill at carving, then move on to your own designs and work.  My preference would be to focus on original guns rather than modern interpretations.  However, choose whatever suits you but practice, a lot.

dave
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2019, 04:04:17 PM »
I've carved a total of one gunstock, so my thoughts are decidedly non-expert:

The problem with transferring a pattern directly is that the size and proportions of your gun are highly unlikely to be exactly what the original's were, and thus the carving pattern isn't going to fit the space available on your gun in the same way that it does on the original. Also, photos are flat and gunstocks are not (or shouldn't be, anyhow) which will add another element of distortion to the transfer. I suspect that even if you can transfer your pattern exactly and then carve it expertly, the end result will look subtly "off" and bug you. Edited to add: It does seem to have worked for Smart Dog's Haines copy, so maybe I'm all wet.

I've never tried it on a gun, but I suppose that if you HAD to do so, you could transfer a pattern using a grid technique and allowing the squares (or triangles) to become rectangles (or different proportioned triangles) as the pattern is stretched or compressed to fit your space. If you don't know what I'm referring to see this website: https://www.drawinghowtodraw.com/drawing-lessons/improve-drawing/copy-transfer-images-drawings.html

For a simple pattern, though, you might actually do better just to to mark a couple reference points ("I want the scroll to come out 4/5 of the way from the cheekpiece edge to the buttplate, which point it is *here* on my stock makes mark and the top edge to come up to *here* makes mark and end *here* makes mark.") Then draw in the scroll to fit those marks, and then readjust to make the curves flow smoothly. Not exactly freehand, but much freer and simpler than using a stencil. Once you get the main elements right, you can add any trimmings you want. I think you will find it much easier than you expect it, if you give it a try.

If it is any encouragement, there are a lot of originals that aren't all that expertly carved and have a bit of wonkiness or folksiness to them.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 04:19:40 PM by Elnathan »
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Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2019, 04:20:54 PM »
You're not gonna hurt for references with these guys, and all I have to add is once you have your stock prepped ( at least with 200 grit) use a pencil and eraser.  Sooner or later you'll hit a picture that will please you.

Also, for the first time, stay away from very tight curves.

Go for it.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2019, 04:29:49 PM »
I think you have to practice till you can draw it regardless of whether you use a perfectly scaled design transferred by carbon paper. You can use a super thin, flexible plastic French curve or template for ellipses and ovals to clean things up.

The reason I say you have to draw it is you need to be able to see where your carving needs correction and until you practice drawing you can’t see such things. So even if you’re replicating a specific gun like  Dave did you’ll still need to have an eye for making adjustments and that comes from drawing. Buy a sketchbook and work an hour a night. In a week you’ll see progress.
Andover, Vermont

Offline FALout

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 11:30:09 PM »
I know this may sound a little different, but before I carved on a rifle I took a little hiatus from building and took up wood carving little plaques, figures, and all kinds of nic naks.  That year I carved so many Santa faces I was giving them away to family and friends.  It really helped with how to use the tools and maintain them.  You would still need to learn how to draw a design.  Drawing on flat surface is different then drawing on a curved surface like that of a rifle.  Practice drawing on a curved surface similar to where you want your carving, then move onto actually carving on practice piece.  Eventually you will have the confidence to go after that stock.  The hardest cut is the first one, once you start you might as well keep going.
Bob

Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 11:58:32 PM »
My best lessons were from the engraving forums, both The Engraver's Café forum and Lindsey's forum.  Metal engraving is nothing more than carving on metal, a very shallow relief carving.  As stated above, drawing is imperative, but there is hope, because drawing is a learned trait.  It is a muscle and eye coordinated function.

Go to a used book store and buy some old books, out of date text books are cheap, hundreds of pages for less than a dollar.  The printed lines are your guide lines, just like a ruled piece of paper.  Start doodling, I suggest you use Celtic designs to start with, lots of free designs and training options on the Internet.  That will get your hand muscle and eye coordination kicked in gear.  A mechanical pencil and an eraser are cheap.  Practice, practice, practice, and then some more practice, practice and practice. 

Offline tallbear

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 11:59:55 PM »
One of the best pieces of advice I got when I started in all this was from Wallace Gusler.While taking a class with him in KY and mentioning that i could'nt draw Wallace said"Son if you can't draw it you can't carve/engrave it".From that point on I got a sketch book and started drawing everything I could.I've never considered myself artistic but learned  I can draw.......and with practice you can too.......  Best advice I've ever gotten!!!!

Mitch Yates

Offline SingleMalt

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2019, 04:42:19 AM »
I taped paper to a large piece of PVC pipe to learn to draw on a curved surface.  It helped me.
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Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2019, 03:57:45 PM »
I just finished filming a video showing how to do exactly what you are asking about. What I did was take a photo from a book and trace it out in Adobe Illustrator. Then take a photo of the stock with a ruler next to it. I resized the photo in Adobe Photoshop to actual size. Then I copied the tracing of the carving into it as a second layer. From there you can resize and adjust the tracing to fit the stock. I printed it out on a sheet of transparency film and transferred it to the stock with a mix of dammar varnish and denatured alcohol. It works really good. I don't go into the details of the computer stuff because I don't have the process figured out good enough to explain it in any understandable way. Mostly it was work on it for 5 minutes then spend a few hours watching YouTube videos trying to figure out how keep going. I will have the video edited and posted here in a few weeks. I am getting behind on editing again.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2019, 08:02:59 AM »
I will only relate my experience trying to draw a typical Isaac Haines pattern on a practice stock the first time under the supervision of one of the most accomplished carvers in a weekend seminar. 
working without a break I finally got it drawn satisfactorily after 4 or 5 trys over 5 hours. Because I had drawn it I fully understood the relief it represented which facilitated the carving greatly.  The point is if you simply transfer a drawing you aren't learning what you really should before beginning to cut.  If you can't draw it in relation to the 3 dimensional piece of wood you most likely won't successfully carve it.  So start drawing on the wood and, bring it to an accomplished carver or here on the website for critique.  Most of us started that way, it just takes awhile to understand the art. 

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2019, 10:30:30 PM »
One point I've mentioned many times before is to establish the basic structure of the carving before adding details.  Most designs can be broken down into a series of "C" and "S" scrolls.  Draw these backbones in the right place and with the right shape first.  These should look good independently and in conjunction with all the others.  Then go back and add in all the rest of the carving.  I've preached this a lot, but I'm not sure it really makes much sense to most people.  I go over this a bit more in the carving booklet we sell.

All the best,
Jim

Offline ajcraig

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2019, 11:58:37 PM »
There's some very good advice in the responses above.

Also, if you want to learn "hands on" from one of the most accomplished practitioners in the field, there is a class In "18th Century Carving Practices and Techniques" in next June's NMLRA program in Bowling Green, KY.   I can't recommend these classes highly enough.

https://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org

https://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/2020-classes

Cheers, Alex

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2019, 04:31:39 AM »
Like a lot of people have pointed out, there’s a huge correlation between drawing and carving / engraving.  I’m convinced that with practice,  some instruction, and the will, anyone can learn to draw.  Unfortunately, it’s very much a learned endeavor, and takes time.

98% of the time I work out designs on paper.  For me, it’s much easier than drawing directly on the stock, and you have a permanent design on hand.  Don’t worry about the curves associated with the stock, it’ll work fine, and if you have to adjust it, you can. 

While I would highly encourage you to pursue the drawing angle to this, you can certainly copy designs.  Dave showed a great way to copy work, and would confess, I’ve done that plenty of times myself.

After you have a design on paper that is to scale (you can do that with a copier, i.e., enlarge/decrease size), use a fine tip Sharpie and trace the design onto a clear sheet of film.  The film is used for overhead transparencies, and can be purchased at office supply stores.  You can see through the clear film, which greatly aids in placing the design exactly where you want it.  Tape it in place, then slip a piece of carbon paper under the film, and gently trace the design with a ball point pen.  Here’s an example of what it looks like:



This is the image traced onto the stock, with some other elements I added later using the same technique:



This is a photo of the finished carving:




          Ed
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Willbarq

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2019, 06:38:51 AM »
I am with you. I am majorly deficient in execution. The people here have capabilities far beyond what the average citizen or artist walking in off the street could do. My suggestion is to keep your efforts simple as you progress in skills.  2 cents added.. My stick figures look amateur, I feel your pain.

Offline JLayne

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2019, 03:12:54 PM »
"My suggestion is to keep your efforts simple as you progress in skills."

I agree. For my first try, I think I am going to try and keep it to adding the secondary beavertail moldings around the lock and side plate panels, and possibly something relatively simple around the tang. Just trying to gather as much information as I can on tools and techniques for now.

Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2019, 08:06:47 PM »
I'm right there with ya. Currently working on my first rifle. I want to do a little carving and engraving, but I'm a complete virgin at it. Very intimidating.

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2019, 08:54:15 PM »
Carving really is not that hard. Give it a try and you may be surprised at how it goes.

Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2019, 09:18:07 PM »
This will humble the best in you.  https://engraverscafe.com/threads/gunstock-russian-hunt.25891/

He is a Bulgarian engraver, gunsmith, knifemaker, woodcarver and an overall great artist. 

Offline John Shaw

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2019, 04:26:38 AM »
My only advise is to add to what has already been said and carve a very simple pattern. Simple carving done well looks good. Complicated carving done poorly looks terrible.

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Carving for the Artistically Challenged
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2019, 05:35:26 AM »
Just draw away with pencil on your stock. If it doesn't look right, that is why they make erasers. When I started carving, it would sometimes take a week to get the design so I was happy with it, Start out simple and don't start carving until you are 100% happy with you design. Once you start cutting wood, you can't go back and correct a poor design.
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