Canoe guns

[borderdogs]

Hi Guys,
I have a question about "Canoe Guns" are they purpose built rifles or they the result of rifles that were cut down and modified to make a longer rifle still usable after long use and abuse?

I am not sure where I first saw reference to a canoe gun but in the early 80's I saw an article about a bunch of modern day mountain men building mountain/plains rifles purposely short so they could carry and use them on horseback. There were a series of pictures on the rifle builds purpose built short. There were pictures of some of the guys in period clothes on horseback with their rifles carried in a "California Horn Loop", over their laps, on their backs via a sling, or across their dogs back where the dogs were being carried draped over the saddle. As I recall, these guys were going to trek - hunt horseback. Unfortunately I do not remember where I read the article perhaps Muzzle Blast but I don't have copies that far back to check.

Anyway, back to the canoe gun concept are there rifle builders that make a canoe type rifle? Having some experience wilderness canoe camping and horseback riding I see the advantage of having a short barreled rifles but I am interested in finding out if their are rifle builders out there now building a canoe type muzzleloader?
Thanks,
Rob

[Justin Urbantas]

Check this out.


I know short Germanic rifles were made for boar hunting on horseback, and the Swedish had "sled rifles"  Both of which you could easily shoot one handed

[Justin Urbantas]

I plan on building a similar one to the one in the video, with an octagon .62 smooth barrel with rifle sights

[borderdogs]

Justin,
That's a neat video. Also back in the 80's when I was actively buying and selling antique guns I came across a short barreled larger bore German boar rifle that had a swing out heavy bayonet. That rifle was a flint and was probably built in the 1790's if I remember correctly.
Rob

[WadePatton]

This subject comes up, fairly regularly, but not as often as patch lubes.  You will find mixed sentiments and ideas.

[borderdogs]

Hi Wade,
I did a search for canoe guns but nothing came up hence the post. It's an interesting concept.
Rob

[Joe S]

If you search "canoe guns" with the "check all" box checked, the search will time out and you get no result. If you search with only "gun building" checked, you'll get a bunch of hits.

Based on these many discussions, it is not al all clear that anything like a "canoe gun" ever existed. It may well be a modern invention.  But, you can read it all and figure out what you want to do.

[rich pierce]

I’ll try to do an unbiased summary but it’s tough to do as I like things that are historical.

There’s no evidence that extremely short barreled guns were ever made for selling to folks in the wilderness. Long barreled trade guns (French ones were almost all over 42”) were desired and sold by the thousands to the Great Lakes fur trade, which was canoe-based. Almost all trade was river-based whenever possible because it is efficient and cheap compared to using pack animals.

The term “canoe gun” does not appear in any historical records. It is post-1960.

Trade smoothbores often blew up. Fall down, slide down a hill, jam some snow or dirt in the muzzle, don’t check to see the bore is clear, and blow away half the barrel. So, saw the barrel off and use it if you’ve got nothing else. In historical accounts these were called blanket guns because they could be hidden under a blanket worn as a match coat.

The closest historically correct short barreled guns that would fit anyone’s desire for a flintlock canoe gun are 2 types. Blunderbusses (huge bore and wildly inaccurate with a ball) and military short smoothbores for cavalry. Those were usually equipped with short barrels about 12-20 ga depending on what that country preferred for those arms. Not sure how many made it into civilian hands, but one of these is on my “to do” list for fun. They were equipped with a sliding sling gizzy attached to the sideplate bolt and another further down the forestock.

[Joe S]

Rich - I associate "blanket gun" only with the mountain man era. The plains Indians of that period also apparently shortened gun barrels for using on horseback.

I this your understanding as well?

[borderdogs]

Rich,
Thanks for the summary and I agree with you I like things historical too. The German rifle I was referring to was called a boar rifle, the lock had an engraving of a hunter in a top hat shooting an approaching boar, and it was short (around 24" and was purpose built as a boar rifle) but nowhere near as short as the one in the video. Tools much like rifles evolve through use. Something as simple as how to carry a long rifle has changed over time, be it walking, river travel, horseback, or whatever. I use to do a lot of hiking and canoeing in the wild and I once had a shotgun cut down so I could more easily carry it in a canoe. Its the process of that evolution (through need?) that I find interesting. The concept of a canoe gun or better put short barrel rifle, is interesting from a practical reason at least to me it is. Of course a blunderbuss or a military carbine immediately come to mind but would there have been a demand for something more accurate and short than those....given the length of the barrel?
Rob 

[rich pierce]

Rob,
If there was a demand for short rifles in America it was not manifested before 1803 (Harpers Ferry model 1803) and I’m not sure that counts as “really short”.

[Daryl]

Shorter rifles in demand - yes indeed - during the fur trade, the plains rifles, the names of Dimmick & Hawken come to mind. Those were short rifles
meant for horseback.  SxS shotguns were also in demand, according to the writings & gun orders re-printed in "Firearms of the American West".

[WadePatton]

Shorter rifles in demand - yes indeed - during the fur trade, the plains rifles, the names of Dimmick & Hawken come to mind. Those were short rifles
meant for horseback.  SxS shotguns were also in demand, according to the writings & gun orders re-printed in "Firearms of the American West".

So that's why those have such stubby stout barrels.    

Anything under three and a half feet seems short to me these days. 

[JW]

I’ve not seen reference to the term “canoe gun” before the modern era. Was there ever a gun purposely made shorter to carry in a canoe? The lack of period documentation proving they did NOT exist is apparently enough for some within the past half century to market such creations as “canoe guns” though – as many can attest – a common, 40+ inch barrel fits just fine in most canoes. In the 18th century, there are references to very specific situations of natives cutting down guns to conceal in their matchoats, leading some to recreate “blanket guns” in modern times. Of course there are also numerous references in the period to cut down guns due to burst barrel or some such reason. And then there are countless purposefully built short rifles built in Europe. In North America, it’s clear that longer-barreled rifles and smoothbores predominated. The 19th century saw cut down smoothbores in the west for hunting buffalo from horseback. I’m familiar with that trend.

Long story short, it seems like there are far more “canoe guns” around today than there were 200-plus years ago, and I doubt there was a trend to specifically make short smoothbores for canoe travel.

[Bob McBride]

I think there were Canoe Guns in the sense that a man who lived on the river, and had several rifles, one of which had been cut down for one reason or another, probably more than once yelled back to the house, “Woman, bring me a sammich and my canoe gun, I’m a going fishing!” 

Purpose built? I doubt it. Purpose cut down or a short gun dedicated to the canoe or similar endeavors? Likely. Will a long gun ‘fit’ in a canoe? Sure. Is a short gun you can load vertical-wise, or near vertical, in a packed canoe without standing up convenient? Darn tootin.

[borderdogs]

I was in the Hunters Rendezvous store in Pepperell, MA a few weeks ago and one of the guys there pulled a "coach gun" off the wall to show me. It wasnt old maybe built in the 1960's) but it was very short barreled and a flint.
Rob

[Justin Urbantas]

Here's an original canoe gun made specifically for a boat...

[oldtravler61]

  Justin that's a punk gun for shooting ducks. The canoe gun is just a modern term. The natives cut more than one fowler short for many reasons.
The  Fort Mackinac  Massacre was helped by cut off weapons. Wether anyone accepts the term doesn't matter. But build one for sale an see how long it lasts on your table.... Oldtravler

[Richard]

Didn't Josh Randall the senior have a hand in its development. 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rich P and Jose  see it  like I see it as well.
I think of blanket guns, (reservation period ) as the only real short guns, apart from those cut down for running buffalo. No "canoe" guns till yesterday, so to speak.
Yes, though, short barreled sporting guns in Europe, but hardly "canoe" types.

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks, Justin.  That is a great video.

[Hungry Horse]

 An early mention of a shortened rifle is in the writings of the Lewis&Clark expedition. It was the result of a ruptured barrel ( as I believe most were) on one of the Harpers Ferry’s rifles. I think most guns used in this manner most likely were the later North West guns with thirty inch barrels. They load quite easily in a canoe and are still long enough to perform very well. Cut off rifles, and smoothbores, are a good way for a nimrod to shoot himself, or someone else, in my opinion.

  Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Below is a picture of a trade gun found in the shallow water of a local lake about fifteen years ago.  It is a Northwest trade gun of 28 gauge with a barrel 26 3/4" long.  the barrel appears to me to be original length - not cut off.  The proportions of the octagonal and round sections, the evidence of a sheet brass muzzle band, and the spacing of the rod pipe in the length of the forestock, are consistent with this being original length.  How it got into the lake and in broken condition will always be a mystery but the imagination comes up with all kinds of scenarios.  This relic carries a 1865 flint lock.

There is no charge in the barrel.

[Bob McBride]

Handy.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Another feature arguing against this gun ever having been chopped, is the poition of the entry hole for the rod.  Look how close it is to the lock.  there is no evidence of a pipe there...just a hole.