Author Topic: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions  (Read 2531 times)

NateK

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Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« on: August 05, 2020, 08:39:35 PM »
I did not see a particular forum for introductions so I figured I would go ahead and do it here before I asked a few general questions. My path to black powder has been kind of a backdoor entry. I am first and foremost a hunter and trapper (still hoping to be a mountain man when I grow up) and guns, bows, etc have always just been tools with exception of a couple of older firearms that belonged to my granddad. I spent my high school and college years in northwest Tennessee and frequented Dixie Gun Works and have always liked the idea of building a black powder rifle but never followed through with it. Several years ago I sold my compound bow and dove into traditional archery which I loved but due to shoulder issues (at the ripe old age of 26) my ability is severely limited in that area. After shooting a trad bow compounds were unattractive and while competent for ensuring a full freezer my customized bean field rifle was not all that much fun. Long story longer I purchased a used TC flintlock hawken(ish) rifle last year and ended up hunting almost exclusively with it because it was just that much fun and have now decided that it's time to build a real gun.

There are two rifles that I currently want to build and I think I am going to do them in the wrong order. Neither rifle would be a show piece but meant to be used as hunting rifles.

The first rifle I plan to build is a full stock flintlock plains rifle (Hawken inspired but I'm not a stickler on the details - too much) in either .54 or .58 (leaning towards .58) as this will be primarily an elk rifle for now and when the budget allows a griz and bison rifle.

The second would be a southern mountain rifle in .40 or .45 that would resemble what my family in Tennessee would have carried back in the day for squirrel, deer, etc.

Hopefully I will be ordering parts for the plains rifle this fall and winter and will be building next spring and summer. I have access to a family member's workshop and his expertise on woodworking, cabinetry etc. and also have access to a first rate gunsmith/metal worker who could handle such tasks as fitting breech plugs, milling dovetails, etc. if I did not feel up to the task. Any input you guys have on where to start would be awesome - I have already combed through this forum and youtube etc.. If there are any parts of a build that a first time builder should definitely NOT try themselves please let me know! I figure I will be well over 150 hours getting my first rifle in the white and don't plan on rushing any part of it. 

I am located just north of Memphis Tennessee now and if anyone is within a few hours I would love to meet up and shoot/talk whatever.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2020, 09:04:44 PM »
Welcome to the forum!
You have certainly come to the right place to solve any gun building problems you might encounter.
Not too great here, mending broken hearts or fixing the crack of dawn.  Most other things, you will find some good responses.
Not near Memphis, as I currently live in west central O-high-ho, but I betcha can hook up with some long rifle talent near ya.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2020, 10:51:19 PM »
Quote
I am located just north of Memphis Tennessee now
Nate,
I am 1/2 way between Oakland and Somerville, east of Memphis.  Easy to get to if you know the back way.  Got lots of stuff as I used to own a ML store in town.  Be glad to have you for a couple of hours, a day, or mentor you on your build over time.  There is no imposition on my part.
Dave Kanger

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-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2020, 11:08:55 PM »
There are a few forums related to BP as I'm sure you're aware but for expert advice, and I mean actual high end custom gunmakers, piping in with clear, friendly (watch out for Mike  ;)) and detailed answers on questions you may have, there is no better source than this forum, period. Not even close. Enjoy your stay, may it be a long one. Welcome to the club.

Offline pjmcdonald

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2020, 11:11:07 PM »
Nate,
Welcome! I’m another relatively new guy. I’m in Clinton, MS. About 3 1/2 hours south of Memphis. Nothing on the bench right now but will be starting another in October. You’re welcome to come by if your ever down this way.

You might look into one of Jim Parker’s (Bama) classes. He is just north of Birmingham. I don’t know if he has a spot open in his October class or not. I’ll be there with my old pop and another buddy. Best thing I ever did to get started was take his class and build a TN style mountain rifle.

You’re also close enough to Jack Garner in Corinth, MS. He runs Tennessee Valley Manufacturing (not to be confused with the other TVM, Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders = Matt Avance in Natchez). Jack is a first rate gentlemen and still supplies components. I’ve also bought a parts set from Matt. Good people.

I don’t know much about plains rifles. But for deer, a .45 SMR is a dandy. I’d suggest you start there. With a good kit and dedication, you might could have it this season.

Again, welcome to the addiction!

Paul

NateK

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2020, 12:37:29 AM »
Thanks for the welcome guys! I will definitely have to get in touch with you local guys, especially as I get into a build...

Offline Not English

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2020, 02:36:59 AM »
Nate,

I think your choices are spot on. I'd go with a .54 fullstock rifle as  a first build. I think a .54 is one of the best calibers as far as weight, aerodynamics, and knockdown power are concerned. There's a lot of precarved  stocks and kits around. Chambers and Kibler are some of the best out there. Keep in mind a lot of the early mountain men were carrying trade rifles rather than Hawkens.

Offline rsells

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2020, 05:31:57 AM »
I recommend that you check in with Don Stith when it comes to building the Hawken rifle.  I assembled a set of his early flint parts for him and it was a great rifle and unique.  He covers the range of Hawken rifles and are period correct.  Don is a member of this forum, and you can pull him up on the net as well.  I have a set of photo's of the early flint I put together for him if you would like to take a look.  The hardware are hand forged like the original he was copying.  If you would like to get the photographs send me your email address to rbpodge@twlakes.net.  I love two types of rifles as well.  It depends upon my mind set at that point in time if the Hawken or the Southern mountain rifle comes out on top.

I would recommend Jim Kibler's  Southern mountain rifle parts set.  It is period correct as well.

I live in Monterey, Tennessee about 80 miles East of Nashville on I-40.  I work in the shop most every day since I retired.  Feel free visit if you are in my area. 

Good luck with your builds.
                                                                              Roger Sells

NateK

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2020, 05:29:08 PM »
I have definitely looked up Mr. Stith and his parts look awesome. I have also seen a few guns you guys have built from his parts on here that look really nice. The only concern I have with Kibler's kits are the 46" swamped barrels and as I am only 5'-7" this ends up being an eye level muzzle so I would be looking for stumps when it came time to reload... The swamped barrel plus pre-cut dovetails etc. makes cutting it down difficult.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2020, 08:08:00 PM »
... The only concern I have with Kibler's kits are the 46" swamped barrels and as I am only 5'-7" this ends up being an eye level muzzle so I would be looking for stumps when it came time to reload...

A long gun is no trouble in hill country--put the butt downhill.  On flat ground kick the butt out too the side and load on an angle.  Easy peasy. Also when you don't buy a kit you can saw a barrel off to whatever length you want-provided it fits the school. If you buy an "old-school" type kit, be sure to swap out the lock for an English one (if making a TN).  Many of the precarved kit sellers include a Germanic lock which is inappropriate for Southern guns in my book.

Kibler is a "new age" kit and is not what I'm talking about. Jim sells you a true historically proper gun kit.  Welcome and good luck. Kits are limiting, no matter which one you purchase.

Hold to the Wind

Offline Frank

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2020, 09:52:27 PM »
Nate. Don’t let the 46 inch barrel on the Kibler Mountain Rifle scare you off. I am 5ft 8 inches and it is not a problem loading. They are slender and light and a joy to shoot.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2020, 10:23:05 PM »
I’m just under 6’1 and I just kick the butt of my longer barreled rifles out a bit. I wouldn’t miss out on a particular style rifle because it was a bit long.

Offline heinz

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2020, 05:13:14 AM »
Nate, welcome to the forum.  I would strongly recommend the Kibler SMR kit for a first build.  You will see first hand what a well-assembled rifle should fit like.  Many of the construction techniques are much easier to understand when you have seen them done.  Buy one of the how-to books like Buchele et. al. "Recreating the American longrifle" Or Peter Alexander "Gunsmith of Greenville County"
The Kibler kit is based on the North Carolina Whitson family rifles so you can look them up and add a few creative touches.  Then you can tackle the Hawkin.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 05:15:00 PM by heinz »
kind regards, heinz

NateK

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2020, 05:50:12 PM »
Does anyone have the overall length of the Kibler rifles? Sounds like that may be the place to start...

Offline pjmcdonald

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2020, 11:54:14 PM »
Nate,

See https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/rifle-kit/products/southern-mountain-rifle-kit-gun-base-price-950 for Jim's kit. I've not built one but a classmate did a couple years ago. He was done in a week, including first coat of finish. I had several more weeks of work on my own, building from someone else's "pre-carve."

According to website, Barrel length is 46". LOP is around 13.75". LOA will be in the neighborhood of 62" or so. Don't let the length scare you off. Handling one, it was one of the lightest, quick handling guns I've held. I'm sure others with Kibler's can chime in and verify.

Bob McBride discusses his on his YouTube:

Paul

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2020, 03:28:08 PM »
Long barrels aren't hard to load. this one has a 72" barrel. Do as Wade instructs above. grab ahold of the muzzle and walk away from it till it's at the right height.

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Offline snapper

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2020, 04:06:45 PM »
Nate

Dont be afraid to take TOF up on his offer to help you out.

He has been a good friend of mine for quite a few years.   He is an extremely generous and helpful person.

Good luck on your journey


Fleener
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2020, 06:36:28 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Nate.  Your choice of a full stocked Hawken for your first rifle, is a good one
I think.  I personally think a .54 is fine for moose and elk, but for grizzly and buffalo, a .58 is an improvement
which will also have more effect on the elk and moose, if loaded appropriately. imho, of course.
Daryl

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Offline alacran

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2020, 03:11:27 PM »
Welcome to the forum. Ditto what Daryl just posted.
You may want to get a copy of Dixon's  The Art of Building a Pennsylvania Longrifle.
It is a how to book, it is a concise and easy to understand explanation of the sequence of building muzzle loaders.
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: Introduction and Plains Rifle Questions
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2020, 06:36:21 PM »
Mike, that is SOME Canoe Gun.  It would make a strong canoe keel!    ;D