Looking for advice from you seasoned builders - Dinged breech plug FIXED! : )

[Curtis]

I just feel sick! 

In the process of starting to engrave my last major part on my Alexander Henry rifle, I somehow managed to let my barrel take a tumble from my vice - I thought it was locked in but alas it was not.  It fell about four feet, bounced on my rubber floor mat and flipped breech first into the concrete floor for a double hit.  I'm looking for ideas on how I might save the breech but I am afraid it will need to be replaced.  One top corner got crushed and behind the snail it got pretty mangled.  After the photos were taken I peened the back of the breech flat again but it wasn't enough to raise the crushed corner.  I don't think I can do much for the mangled part short of filing the damage off.

I have though of attempting to build up a bead with my tig welder and then file it back, but I''m not sure I have enough skill to keep from making it worse.

Any good ideas out there short of starting over with a new breech?

Here is the damage:







Of course the standing breech is already engraved which will make fitting a new plug a delicate operation....

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!  I may be away from the computer for a day or two but will respond when I can.



Thanks, Curtis

[Adrie luke]

Curtis,

I am sorry to hear of the damage on your breece plug.
I have 3 options:
File of the breece plug and fill it up with a silver plate.
Or, you can use a steel plate.
I think, you leave the damage and make a new breece plug, I know you can do that.
A lot of success!
Adrie

[FALout]

I don’t think it’s all that bad, it does suck that it happened but Murphy’s Law kicks in when you least expect it.  It will take some file work to clean back up and the re-do some of the nice work you had there.  You would be surprised when all is said and done, know one but you will notice.  Your project has been shaping up nicely, don’t let this set back taint it.  Unless you have a tig welder and really know to use it, I’m not sure I’d go that route.
Bob

[FlintFan]

I would send the plug to Peter Nagel of Restorative Welding.  He has a website.  He is excellent with a tig welder and specializes in gun repairs. Have him weld on a blob, which you can then file back to original form.

His prices and lead time are very reasonable.

Do it right, that is going to be a nice rifle.

[J Henry]

 I would leave it alone,could be chasing a feather.

[Bob Roller]

I would send the plug to Peter Nagel of Restorative Welding.  He has a website.  He is excellent with a tig welder and specializes in gun repairs. Have him weld on a blob, which you can then file back to original form.

His prices and lead time are very reasonable.

Do it right, that is going to be a nice rifle.

Restorative welding by a specialist would be my choice followed by careful filing.
Bob Roller

[snapper]

Curtis, I assume Jim W. is still hanging out here?  He has a guy that he used on my Rigby to do some welding on the hammer.  Either way, you have his email I am sure, if not I do.



Fleener

[louieparker]

Curtis I am sorry you had that accident . But I would bet based on your other skills that you can fix it your self.. If you have done  a bit of tig welding I would bet you can fix it..   I would give it a try.. If you are not happy then send it to someone.
Just my opinion...Louie

[Curtis]

Some very good suggestions there guys, thanks.  Whatever I do I will think on it a while before I jump in the deep water.

Art, I have Jim's email and will certainly consider that option.

FlintFan, I have heard of Peter Nagal before and will also consider that option as well.

I have a TIG welder, but I'm not sure I have enough skill for something this delicate.  I will play with some scraps and see if doing it myself is even practical or just a bad idea.

Thanks guys!!!

Curtis

[T*O*F]

Curtis,
I've done a fair amount of welding on the standing breech end of those rifles.  I use an oxy/acetyl torch with 1/16" 2% nickel rods from Brownells.  With a small flame, it's possible to add a single blob of material.

[Ed Wenger]

I don’t know about the repair, but your engraving is superb!  Great work, Curtis, and good luck!  Best,

Ed

[Curtis]

Curtis,
I've done a fair amount of welding on the standing breech end of those rifles.  I use an oxy/acetyl torch with 1/16" 2% nickel rods from Brownells.  With a small flame, it's possible to add a single blob of material.

Thanks for the tip TOF.  Went to Brownells' web site and all I see is 3-1/2% nickel steel rods, is that perhaps what you are using?
I will be having the breech plug color cased, will the welded area color case the same as the plug steel?

I don’t know about the repair, but your engraving is superb!  Great work, Curtis, and good luck!  Best,

Ed

Thanks Ed!

[Curtis]

Another question for you all - I think a gold band will hold up to color case temps, will fine silver take the heat as well?  I seem to remember seeing silver bands on an original Alex Henry or similar target gun with a color cased plug.

I am thinking if I were to do a silver or gold inlay where I have the border outlined on the plug it may be able to move enough metal to raise the dented corner on the top of the plug.  Anyone have some thought to share along those lines? Does that sound workable?

I have also considered the possibility of masking the corner ding with some engraving... perhaps?

Curtis

[Daryl]

Good idea on a band, or carefully putting a spot of weld there and dressing it properly.
Some guys in specialty shops have the requisite skill for that work - both places.

[Rolf]

Another question for you all - I think a gold band will hold up to color case temps, will fine silver take the heat as well?  I seem to remember seeing silver bands on an original Alex Henry or similar target gun with a color cased plug.

Curtis

Melting point for fine silver is 1761 fahrenheit. I used fine silver on the rear bands of a purcussion pistol. It turned quickly black . I'd stick to gold. Good luck !

Best regards
Rolf

[snapper]

Cutis

Your impacted spots are fairly small.  As you know CCH gives you a good range of random colors.  Even if you got a off color on the welded spots no one would notice except you.

Fleener

[Pukka Bundook]

You are doing a terrific job on that rifle Curtis!
Your engraving is some of the nicest I've seen.

Blob of weld and dress it up, is my suggestion.
I even thought how leaving it would add authenticity!...How many originals do we see with some marring , that we are willing to overlook?

[Dan Fruth]

I would take the breach and send it to Cole Haugh, Jack's son who now runs the gun shop. He has done excellent welding for me in the past, and I would trust him . They are in Milan, Indiana.

[FlintFan]

I seem to remember seeing silver bands on an original Alex Henry or similar target gun with a color cased plug.

The silver lines were most likely platinum or one of it's alloys. In 19th century text one of the platinum alloys that was commonly used was referred to as "platina".  Platinum is the best (and most expensive of course) metal you could use for anything that will be exposed to heat, and like gold it will not tarnish.

You could use a platinum alloy with ruthenium, which is less expensive, but for this purpose will give you all the physical and cosmetic benefits of platinum.

Jewelry supply houses usually sell it by the inch and small diameter wire isn't too expensive.

[davec2]

I am not in the same league here as far as gun builder expertise goes, but I have dropped a few things I had worked very hard to make as perfect as possible and understand the need to repair the damage.  My comment would be as follows:

1.  Unless the tiny "ding" on the corner of the octagon is worse than it appears in the picture, I would bump it back into place, as much as possible, from the back end of the plug and blend it.
2.  I would, as others suggest, TIG weld repair the damage near the nipple and reshape that.
3.  Use gold for the bands and not silver.  But in addition, and I learned this from JerryWH, make sure that every part of the gold wire inlay area is CLEAN before you hammer in the gold and then do the color case hardening.  If there is any dirt, oil, lube.....ANY organic material trapped under the gold (or platinum), it will blow out the inlay metal as you bring the part up to case hardening temperature.

Magnificent work on that rifle....best of luck with the repair !

[T*O*F]

Went to Brownells' web site and all I see is 3-1/2% nickel steel rods, is that perhaps what you are using?

Yes, CRS took over for a moment.  I've got 2 different sizes.  Can send you a couple of each.

I will be having the breech plug color cased, will the welded area color case the same as the plug steel?

Before the blank tangs became available, I used to weld the spring hole up.  I think Snapper had all of his color cased with no ill effects.

[Not English]

Curtis,

I've done a lot of TIG in the past. I don't know how the nickel rod will work, but I suspect that the nickel is there for weldability. If it was me, I'd use copper coated steel wire. If you know anyone one with a Mig welder, get a couple of pieces of 0.035" or 0.45 wire to use as filler wire. The trick to doing this is to keep the weld moving. The copper coating is there to help keep oxygen out of the weld and won't affect the final product. You don't need penetration for strength, just a deposit on the metal that can be filed down.

[flatsguide]

Maybe a jewelers in your neck of the woods does lazer welding, if so supply him with one of the welding rods suggested. Sorry about the accident.
Richard

[Curtis]

I took advantage of a cool spell here and spent the night doing a little primitive camping on the back of my place last night.  Enjoyed a nice fire and came back to the house with a clear head and a better attitude!  I see some great thoughts, ideas and suggestions and comments were posted while I was out.

TOF - I would take you up on the offer of a couple of each size of those rods.  If I don't end up using them for this repair I would definitely try them on another project.  You should have my home address but if you can't find it shoot me an email.


Davec2 - thanks for your thoughts and the info concerning a clean space for wire inlay when doing color case.  That shouldn't be a problem but after reading that I will always double check before hammering in any wire.  I will likely try your #1 suggestion for the "ding" before I go the welding route. 

FlintFan - you are probably correct, what I saw was likely platinum.  I probably have enough gold on hand to do a couple if bands and will use that if I decide to do an inlay.

Snapper - very good point, it should blend right in.

Rolf - Good info to know!  I will avoid using silver!

Not English - I have a Mig welder and have some of both size wires you mention.  I hadn't thought of using Mig wire and will keep that in mind.

After returning from my overnight camp with a clear head I took another look at the damage behind the nipple and decided to see if I could move some of that metal back in place. First I used a section of steel rod that fit the area (I held it in place with my fingers but needed one hand to hold the camera):



And a slightly smaller screwdriver shaft for more control on the curve:



Then a slightly rounded punch:





And a graver handle to flatten the plug face again:



It now looks considerably better, I think I a little careful file work will take care of the rest.





Thanks for the help,
Curtis

[Gunnermike]

I have a work friend, ex-Navy like me, who always said to me "the sign of a true craftsman is not how well he does his work, but how well he fixes his mistakes".

You're a true craftsman Curtis.


Mike