Fowler found in a wall

[WESTbury]

It is definitely not a Hills gun, and was most likely made close by, as it seems to be a Worcester County gun, maybe an Earle. It would be interesting to see the muzzle end, and the possibility that it was longer at one time. 42" is very short for a Rev. or earlier New England fowler. Being made for a bayonet in 1775 is also a real possibility.

Yes, it very definitely is not a Hill's fowler. The stock is not Hill's "like" at all. As you pointed out, a central Mass. fowler or possibly Rhode Island. Most New England  gunsmiths lived within a radius of 50 miles of each other. New England is so small in area that it is possible, on a good day, for people in Connecticut to hear their neighbors in Mass & R.I. breathe.
 Possible Hills fowler shown below.

[ranger1759]

Yep, sure looks like a Hills animal, but it is unusual to see a return scroll in the rear of their guards. Do you think the nose band is original to it? That's a nifty looking one.

[WESTbury]

Yep, sure looks like a Hills animal, but it is unusual to see a return scroll in the rear of their guards. Do you think the nose band is original to it? That's a nifty looking one.

It has been pretty well established, and demonstrated in the photos in Grinslade's book, that the Hills apparently used whatever components were available. For instance, a Hills dual purpose fowler #NE37 in Grinslades book, has a triggerguard bow with a "return". Additionally, the arm is signed on the buttplate tang, "MEDAD HILLS". I'm hoping you have Tom's book to see what I'm referencing.

Hills fowler NE40 also has a return in its triggerguard bow.

[WKevinD]

Grinslade NE 34 (pg 68) has a lock that looks very much like the one on the found fowler.
There is a small rivet below the pan that corresponds with a hole.in the plate on the found gun.
Any idea what that is for?
Kevin

[ranger1759]

I have Tom's book, and a few of my Hills guns are in it. I was not inferring that it was not correct, I was stating that it is uncommon to see that scroll on the back of their guards, that's all. It does not show up on their F&I guns, it is a later detail in their case. I am still curious about the muzzle band.

[ranger1759]

The rivet/hole below the pan is most likely for a mainspring screw. A lot of English locks have a notch that holds them in place under the pan, most continental locks have a screw that goes though the plate.

[WESTbury]

I have Tom's book, and a few of my Hills guns are in it. I was not inferring that it was not correct, I was stating that it is uncommon to see that scroll on the back of their guards, that's all. It does not show up on their F&I guns, it is a later detail in their case. I am still curious about the muzzle band.

Your are fortunate to have some Hills longarms, wish I could say the same.

I used to live south of Goshen about 15 miles or so. Went up to Goshen many, many times for the fall fair and the Scottish Festival. Caught quite a few native brookies in the West Branch of the Bantam river which was south of town and hung out at a Goshen firearms store, Autumn Gunworks. I used to ask some of the locals about the Hills and where they lived in Goshen. I received many blank stares.
 

[rtc]

I hesitated to jump in on this conversation regarding the stocking originality. However, in my experience examining similar fowlers here in New England, this one is 100%. There is an original fowler, dater 1757 on the thumb piece, that I examined closely about two years ago. It, and it’s maker, had been unidentified. However, I conclusively found its maker, Barnabus Mathis from Marlborough, Mass. (central Massachusetts, where many in this "Frencvh style were made), and added it to several other fowlers made by him (1750s-1760s). He was dead by the early 1770s. So, this newly-seen fowler on this website, while somewhat similar to the example from 1757, is different in some details. This newly found one on the website is also dated 1775 on the thumb piece.

You’ll immediately see similar lines, curly maple stock, etc. The recycled iron stock furniture is similarly French. The iron butt plate, lock (replaced on the 1757 example with a later lock), iron side plate, & trigger guard are similar in form, too. And the stock form is the same. I'd love to see more of this gun "in the flesh" and see or create more photos.

Also, fine curly maple stocks are seen on numbers of New England fowlers by the 1750’s onward. In fact, we New Englanders were putting such fine-grained maple into our long guns a full generation before it is seen on PA long rifles! It may just be that the riflemen who served in the 1775-76 Siege of Boston army, seeing the appearance of such New England fowlers, desired similar treatment on future PA rifles. Now wouldn’t that idea raise the eye brows of many PA long rifle collectors??!!

I am, your humble servant, Rich C

 

[rich pierce]

Superb! Thanks for sharing.

[Rajin cajun]

Thanks Rich, great photos and a great observation on your part about those New England Fowlers .

Bob

[WESTbury]

Rich,

Wonderful fowler, thanks for letting us see it. I'm assuming you've researched the heck out of whomever "J STOW" was.

Also, never hesitate jumping in here. The more input we get the better for all of us.

[rtc]

I suspect the "J. Stow" is Josiah Stow, of Marlborough, Massachusetts. That's the same town that Banabus Mathis, the gunsmith who made the fowler, was living in. Stow would have been 27 years old in 1757 when the fowler was made. This was in the middle of the French and Indian War in which Massachusetts Bay Colony was heavily engaged.

Josiah Stow (abt. 1730 - 1818)

Born about 1730 [location unknown]
Son of Thomas Stow and Hannah (Johnson) Stow

Husband of Ruth (Howe) Stow — married 19 Feb 1760 in Marlborough, Middlesex, Massachusetts Bay Colony
Died 28 Mar 1818 in Marlborough, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States
[From: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stow-1393 ]

Regards,
Rich C

[WESTbury]

I suspect the "J. Stow" is Josiah Stow, of Marlborough, Massachusetts. That's the same town that Banabus Mathis, the gunsmith who made the fowler, was living in. Stow would have been 27 years old in 1757 when the fowler was made. This was in the middle of the French and Indian War in which Massachusetts Bay Colony was heavily engaged.
Regards,
Rich C

Excellent!

[B.Barker]

Very nice wall find. I've heard of guns being found in southern state house walls from around the civil war period. It's said they were hiding them from the northern troops that occupied after the war. Wonder why they were hiding guns in the walls that far north. Thanks for sharing it with us.

[mr. no gold]

A superb W PA rifle with silver wire and silver inlays was found several decades ago in the wall of a house in Sacramento, CA. Gun was from period of early to mid gold rush period. Why it was sealed up in the wall is not known nor is the owner at that time. Moral of the story keep on tearing those walls out, I guess.
Dick

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Growing up I heard several stories of folks hiding a gun in the attic or wall in an attempt to safeguard it when they left their home. I can think of two specific instances where someone returned in search of their gun. My grandfather put his childhood rifle in the attic of his parents house for safekeeping. It was a log home. It remained there until after his parents moved. His cousins lived in the house after that. I went with him to retrieve the gun. It was a rusted mess. Conclusion was that oak shingles aren’t very waterproof. I was 10 and he gave it to me. I played with it for years. I still have the rusted mess.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd take that 1757 date with a grain of salt. There were alot of spurious names and dates added in the New England area  to these guns in the 1920's to drive up the prices.  I wouldn't even assume the thumbpiece on that gun is original work. You have to be very cautious with guns found in the New England area.

[Panzerschwein]

Wonder if Jim might be interested in this for his upcoming project?

[WESTbury]

I'd take that 1757 date with a grain of salt. There were alot of spurious names and dates added in the New England area  to these guns in the 1920's to drive up the prices.  I wouldn't even assume the thumbpiece on that gun is original work. You have to be very cautious with guns found in the New England area.

A usual Mike is spot on.

This sore subject was well documented in a presentation to the ASAC by F. Allen Thompson, Bulletin #44 Spring 1981, available online. I would imagine that this type of activity extended to Kentucky rifles as well.

[Rajin cajun]

Growing up I heard several stories of folks hiding a gun in the attic or wall in an attempt to safeguard it when they left their home. I can think of two specific instances where someone returned in search of their gun. My grandfather put his childhood rifle in the attic of his parents house for safekeeping. It was a log home. It remained there until after his parents moved. His cousins lived in the house after that. I went with him to retrieve the gun. It was a rusted mess. Conclusion was that oak shingles aren’t very waterproof. I was 10 and he gave it to me. I played with it for years. I still have the rusted mess.

Bill please get photos of that “ rusted wreck “ posted here . Would love to see it!

Bob

[120RIR]

Guns "found in walls" seems to be a long-standing theme.  It doesn't detract in any way from the origins, quality, and history of any of these guns but what's the deal with people supposedly sealing up guns in such a way in decades or centuries gone by?  Or, is "found in a wall" a myth that has somehow grown over time?  Has anyone on this forum actually found a gun in a wall or are all of these finds second-, third-, or more-hands removed accounts?  Just curious - not trying to denigrate anyone or anything but I find guns being tossed into rafters, attics, basements, barns, etc. a lot more plausible.

[WKevinD]

Old,old houses that are balloon framed have studs running from sill.to even with no firestops or horzontal framing, inside backs of closet may or.May not be sheathed. Put a gun in the back of the closet core safekeeping and it may disappear into the void.
Kevin

[BOB HILL]

what a wonderful piece. Thanks for sharing.
Bob

[OLUT]

Guns "found in walls" seems to be a long-standing theme.  It doesn't detract in any way from the origins, quality, and history of any of these guns but what's the deal with people supposedly sealing up guns in such a way in decades or centuries gone by?  Or, is "found in a wall" a myth that has somehow grown over time?  Has anyone on this forum actually found a gun in a wall or are all of these finds second-, third-, or more-hands removed accounts?  Just curious - not trying to denigrate anyone or anything but I find guns being tossed into rafters, attics, basements, barns, etc. a lot more plausible.

Not trying to steal the thread, but yes, the tales are true .. ..*. My late buddy was cleaning out a relative's house after the 93 year old gentleman died in 1982 and found several old muskets up in the basement ceiling rafters.
           *. I was the executor of my buddy's estate when he died in 2018. He had an EXTENSIVE collection and had expertly hidden parts of it within various walls where nobody would ever have found them without tearing down his old farm house. Fortunately I knew where to look .......


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[Hungry Horse]

 It’s not just house walls that often hold a secret. One of our county museums got a new ADA bathroom during the lockdown. When they chopped into the walls, they found a collection of food cans, cereal boxes,wine bottles, articles of clothing, and general debris of human occupation. The old museum used to be the city library, which obviously had a tenant nobody knew about.

  Hungry Horse