First time shooting the new Kibler SMR .45

[Big Bubba]

This one works very well for me, for shooting in the gopher fields.
dimensions are:
3/4 ply - Canadian Tire folding legs - I suspect Lowes has them in the States
front 2' wide
back 18"
length 42"
cut out length 20 1/2"
29 1/2" tall



That is exactly what I want to build. I was looking at Rugged Buddy folding legs , but I think yours look more stable. Will check Lowes.

Thanks!

[Big Bubba]

Yes, but he still put one in a small bull. Was it luck? I'd like to see a group.

Yes, it was luck. That is why I stopped for today wasn't goin to do that twice.

[OldMtnMan]

The only way to show a tight patch is more accurate is to compare to a loose patch. I know you took a bunch of shots with the .010 patch but i'd still like to see a group when you're concentrating and then compare that to what you get with a tight patch.

[smylee grouch]

We were making a joke Daryl. We know it's the ground.
Actually Old Mt. Man I was serious, that slope lets you shoot without crouching down as far to sight and that can be a problem with heavy kickers off the bench.  Even more so if your rifle has a lot of drop in the stock.

[Big Bubba]

This is a 5 shot group with .440 ball, 45 grains powder and .018 patch with moose milk.


This is a 5 shot group with .440 ball, 45 grains powder and .020 patch with moose milk.That looked like 2 shots in the hole to the right.


Both are 5 shot groups. Target on the right is with .440 ball, 50 grains of powder and .020 patch with moose milk. Had a nice group going then I had a hang fire (low shot) and obviously pulled the high left shot. Target on the left is with .440 ball, 50 grains of powder and .020 patch with mink oil. That is 2 shots at the bullseye.


Started getting sloppy so I knocked off for today. Had a lot less fouling with the tighter patches. I did swab between each of the 5 shot groups for consistency. My shooting setup was better than the truck, but still want to build a bench like Daryl's. Having some issues seeing that front sight, may have to open the rear sight up a little. It's been cloudy today, but once in a while the sun would pop out and I could see the sight. I think the rifle is very accurate, once it gets me broke in I think my groups will get better.

[smylee grouch]

Looking better Bubba.  What do the shot patches look like?

[Big Bubba]

Looking better Bubba.  What do the shot patches look like?

They were intact. Did not see any burn through, but outside edge on all of them is frayed pretty bad. These are precut patches and are harder to get centered with the ball. The .010 patches were actually one size larger than called for, so they were easier to load. I think I'm going to get some material and start cutting them at the muzzle or get one size larger than called for. Any recommendations?

[smylee grouch]

If you cut at the muzzle, make sure your short starter Nub and Shaft are smaller than the bore/patch so you don't pinch the patch when you load. This can cause a weak area in the patch that you won't be able to see. I hope I explained that right!    I should also mention that a nice smooth crown will help starting a tighter combo which will probably give you even better groups.

[Daryl]

Joanne's fabrics (in the U. States) has denim sold by the ounce weight.  I find 10 ounce shoots well in every rifle I have, with balls from .010" as well as .005" under bore size.
You might find 8 ounce will also shoot. I measure that at .018". It is too thin for my rifles, as well as Taylor's rifles.

[Keith Zimmerman]

Ive won lots of matches with 10th patches.  Try using a felt wad over the powder before you put the patch and ball down.  No problems with fouling either.  But I still would compare it to a heavier patch too.  I dont think they carried mallets with them back in the day....

[Daryl]

The only way to show a tight patch is more accurate is to compare to a loose patch. I know you took a bunch of shots with the .010 patch but i'd still like to see a group when you're concentrating and then compare that to what you get with a tight patch.

You could also just check the combinations used in ANY match, ie: competition, to see how many use .005 to .010" balls with .010" patches.
Neither of those combinations actually get to the bottom of the grooves in most normal barrels, let alone create a seal.

[OldMtnMan]

Doesn't the soft ball obturate a little to help fill the grooves?

[Big Bubba]

Did some smoothing on my muzzle crown. Could probably do a little more, but it is much better than before. It had a pretty sharp edge. Also, did some work to my set trigger, that tight curve was eating my fat finger up. It might have worked if could use my pinky finger. 

[rich pierce]

Doesn't the soft ball obturate a little to help fill the grooves?

I don抰 think so. The round shape of the ball facing the explosion doesn抰 really lend itself to anything other than directing gasses to the edges. A flat based bullet can obtuse tell and a hollow base bullet is ideal for that. But, I digress. Round balls it is.

[OldMtnMan]

Ok, thanks. Just curious.

I was thinking about smooth bores that use no patch.

[Daryl]

Doesn't the soft ball obturate a little to help fill the grooves?

Not likely at all in the smaller sizes & especially with loose combinations & small balls.  I think the .574's were obturating in my Musketoon, as the rifling was
.008" deeper at the breech than at the muzzle, yet patches were reusable.  A .020" patch with .495's in my .50 were not quite sealing, as brown scorch stripes
are witnessed on the recovered patches, running from the bearing ring out to the outside of the patch. These still shoot cleanly enough that no wiping or SWABBING
is necessary while shooting.
Many people who use thin patches cannot find them on the ground after they are shot, due to just burning up into blackened threads & pieces of charred cloth.
My .595's in the 20 bore also oburate as there is a slight choke, yet those patches are also reusable.
All patches fray around the edge and that is due to muzzle blast.  The weaker the material, the more fraying there is.
This is a 5-shot group from a rest (portable table rest) at 25 yards.  Shooting at this range, does not prove a load and is only done as a test of aiming precision.
Through this type of testing I have found that the undersized 16 bore ball, when fired with a sealing patch of .034", shoots 3/4" to the right of my sights + an inch high,
 set for the full sized ball of .682" when used with a 10 ounce .021" patch. It pays to shoot on target when changing any components.
This "group" is 7/10" centre to centre from my .69cal. rifle.

[OldMtnMan]

I don't want to go off topic in someone else's thread but let me just say this Daryl.

We have different goals. I'm just a hunter. Only a deer hunter now. I still hunt timber as you know and my shots aren't very long. 60-70 yds is the max but my goal is to always get closer. If I can shoot a 2" group at my range offhand i'm as happy as a clam and will be in the deer's kill zone. Goal accomplished.

What I don't want is a load that's hard to load. I don't know if I have some medical problem that's making me so weak or if it's just my age. I'm losing a lot of weight too. I'm sure you're still strong and what you think is easy loading I won't. My goal is to use the easiest load that will still give me the accuracy i'm after. Not the very best accuracy but accurate enough to humanly kill a deer at my distances. I don't like to make a compromise in accuracy but I have to be able to load it. I practice enough to be the best shot I can be. If i'm not struggling to load the gun i'll practice more.

I hope you understand.

[Big Bubba]

Doesn't the soft ball obturate a little to help fill the grooves?

Not likely at all in the smaller sizes & especially with loose combinations & small balls.  I think the .574's were obturating in my Musketoon, as the rifling was
.008" deeper at the breech than at the muzzle, yet patches were reusable.  A .020" patch with .495's in my .50 were not quite sealing, as brown scorch stripes
are witnessed on the recovered patches, running from the bearing ring out to the outside of the patch. These still shoot cleanly enough that no wiping or SWABBING
is necessary while shooting.
Many people who use thin patches cannot find them on the ground after they are shot, due to just burning up into blackened threads & pieces of charred cloth.
My .595's in the 20 bore also oburate as there is a slight choke, yet those patches are also reusable.
All patches fray around the edge and that is due to muzzle blast.  The weaker the material, the more fraying there is.
This is a 5-shot group from a rest (portable table rest) at 25 yards.  Shooting at this range, does not prove a load and is only done as a test of aiming precision.
Through this type of testing I have found that the undersized 16 bore ball, when fired with a sealing patch of .034", shoots 3/4" to the right of my sights + an inch high,
 set for the full sized ball of .682" when used with a 10 ounce .021" patch. It pays to shoot on target when changing any components.
This "group" is 7/10" centre to centre from my .69cal. rifle.

One of the things i noticed on recovered patches. The .010 patches were in pieces (Obviously to loose). I found the .018 pillow ticking patches intact all over the yard. I only found two .020 patches even though I shot a lot more of them, those two were intact. Could it be they were getting cut during the loading? I have since smoothed the muzzle, just haven't tried it yet.

[Big Bubba]

I don't want to go off topic in someone else's thread but let me just say this Daryl.

We have different goals. I'm just a hunter. Only a deer hunter now. I still hunt timber as you know and my shots aren't very long. 60-70 yds is the max but my goal is to always get closer. If I can shoot a 2" group at my range offhand i'm as happy as a clam and will be in the deer's kill zone. Goal accomplished.

What I don't want is a load that's hard to load. I don't know if I have some medical problem that's making me so weak or if it's just my age. I'm losing a lot of weight too. I'm sure you're still strong and what you think is easy loading I won't. My goal is to use the easiest load that will still give me the accuracy i'm after. Not the very best accuracy but accurate enough to humanly kill a deer at my distances. I don't like to make a compromise in accuracy but I have to be able to load it. I practice enough to be the best shot I can be. If i'm not struggling to load the gun i'll practice more.

I hope you understand.

I'm with you. I want to get a load and patch accurate enough for hunting squirrels, but easy enough to load. I'm not a competition shooter, so as long as I can to squirrel head size, I will be happy, and that would take care of the deer size targets. So far I haven't had problems loading the ones I've shot, but the .020 patches with moose milk were a lot easier loading than with the mink oil.

[OldMtnMan]

Yes, a liquid lube will always load easier but it's not the best choice for hunting.

[Keith Zimmerman]

Here are a couple 10th patches from a brand new barrel. 

[Daryl]

There is some blow-by and cutting on every land, Keith.
If this is good enough for you and Pete, well, so be it. Some of us demand the best accuracy
 and to get that, the preponderance of evidence is for tight loads.
In small bores, especially the .32, loading was easier with mink oil than with any other lube I've
ever used.
The .69 still loads easily, with Track's Mink oil or Neetsfoot oil.

 Big Bubba - for hunting squirrels you should have a load that will shoot into an inch at 50yards,
maybe 1 1/2" at the worse. Better is certainly better. With the .45, you will want to be head-shooting
them and that requires much better accuracy than a deer.
Yes, I know, most of the shots will be closer than that, but target-shooting-type accuracy is required to constantly kill squirrels.
The rifle is certainly capable - even a cheap production TC is capable of that - how can you accept less?
Any cutting of the patches, is due to the crown.

[Keith Zimmerman]

Like I said, those are the 1st 2 shots out of a brand new barrel.  I expected what I got with the sharp edges until the barrel gets some shots thru it.  By the time I put a couple dozen thru it, the patches showed no issues at all.

I agree about the best accuracy.  Some of my guns I get that with a 10th patch.  Some with a 15th patch.  I use a felt wad that protects the patch and helps keep the fouling to a minimum.

Im not into beating a ball down to get it started.  Too much work thats not needed.  Im a bag shooter.  I shoot out of my bag at paper, steel, woodswalks, etc.  Drives me crazy to see box shooters carrying everything including hammers.  I can get my 5 shots off without issues of beating it to get it started.  Then stand and watch other guys still on there 2nd or 3rd shot hammering away.

If thats what guys want to do, thats fine.  But I get good enough results with a thinner patch and a felt wad to beat them almost all the time.  And u can see I can find my patches intact and not blown apart.

I would like some of u to try it.

[Big Bubba]

There is some blow-by and cutting on every land, Keith.
If this is good enough for you and Pete, well, so be it. Some of us demand the best accuracy
 and to get that, the preponderance of evidence is for tight loads.
In small bores, especially the .32, loading was easier with mink oil than with any other lube I've
ever used.
The .69 still loads easily, with Track's Mink oil or Neetsfoot oil.

 Big Bubba - for hunting squirrels you should have a load that will shoot into an inch at 50yards,
maybe 1 1/2" at the worse. Better is certainly better. With the .45, you will want to be head-shooting
them and that requires much better accuracy than a deer.

Yes, I know, most of the shots will be closer than that, but target-shooting-type accuracy is required to constantly kill squirrels.
The rifle is certainly capable - even a cheap production TC is capable of that - how can you accept less?
Any cutting of the patches, is due to the crown.

Head shooting is the plan and I definitely need to be more accurate or I will be scaring more squirrels than killing. I'm hoping that smoothing the muzzle crown and opening up my rear sight is going to help. Eyesight is not what it once was.

I noticed that you use denim, all my old jeans are measuring .035".

[Daryl]

Like I said, those are the 1st 2 shots out of a brand new barrel.  I expected what I got with the sharp edges until the barrel gets some shots thru it.  By the time I put a couple dozen thru it, the patches showed no issues at all.

I agree about the best accuracy.  Some of my guns I get that with a 10th patch.  Some with a 15th patch.  I use a felt wad that protects the patch and helps keep the fouling to a minimum.

Im not into beating a ball down to get it started.  Too much work thats not needed.  Im a bag shooter.  I shoot out of my bag at paper, steel, woodswalks, etc.  Drives me crazy to see box shooters carrying everything including hammers.  I can get my 5 shots off without issues of beating it to get it started.  Then stand and watch other guys still on there 2nd or 3rd shot hammering away.

If thats what guys want to do, thats fine.  But I get good enough results with a thinner patch and a felt wad to beat them almost all the time.  And u can see I can find my patches intact and not blown apart.

I would like some of u to try it.

We all shoot the trails out of the bag. None of our group is "HAMMERING AWAY" - LOL - not even the women who use the same loads we do & no complaints from them. Interesting line of thinking,
though.
I think you must make a trip up here to BC Rendezvous.  At that rendezvous, no one shooting .010" wins - ever.