Jaeger rifles with American provenance

[backsplash75]

Greetings!
The Behr/Rochester/Monmouth thread has me wondering what the information pool is for Jaeger rifles here in America that have an "iron clad" provenance to 18th century use here. I assume a lot of the ones on the market are GI bringbacks or later imports, wondering what others know of.

a couple that I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Peterson Jaeger/PA provenance (see Moller)





2. Vrooman Rifle/NY

[Bill Paton]

This jaeger is documented to have come to Penn’s colony. Twenty one year old Caspar Wüster arrived in Philadelphia on September 16, 1717 carrying a double barrel rifle.  He was the eldest son of a forester in the Palatine, now a region of Southwestern Germany along the middle Rhine, from which many German speaking people emigrated to William Penn’s colony. Upon reaching majority at the age of 21, he left his seemingly dead-end forestry apprenticeship against his father’s wishes, and arrived in America with only his clothes, a single silver coin worth nine pence, and the double-barreled rifle. That rifle was likely a jaeger wender, as it was described as a rotating barrel affair that was still in the Wistar family in the 1930’s. (Immigration papers changed his name to "Wistar”, and his direct descendants maintain that spelling to this day.

His namesake grandson became a noted Philadelphia physician, friend of Thomas Jefferson, and mentor of Meriweather Lewis as he was preparing for his exploration to the Pacific. Philadelphia’s famed Wistar Institute Cancer Center is named after Dr. Wistar.

 Caspar Wüster was a bright and energetic entrepreneur and became a wealthy businessman. Among other things, he imported guns and gun parts from his native land. As I suspect the first American swivel breech rifles were built on imported German wender actions, I can’t help but wonder if Caspar Wüster/Wistar had any influence on the development of American double rifles, although his death in 1752 is early for such influence.
 
I have made numerous attempts to contact the Wistar family through several avenues without success. Documenting that rifle would provide interesting information for my Kentucky double rifle research, but I have made no headway in finding it. It is a valuable part of their family history and of American rifle history.

Bill Paton

[spgordon]

Between 1731 and 1745, Wistar imported more than fifty rifles from G. F. Hölzer--and Wistar asked that the barrels be longer than usual "because the people [in PA] prefer rifles with barrels that are three feet and three to four inches long." Wister seems to have liked the products of a riflemaker in Rothenberg and disliked the products of a riflemaker in Suhl, instructing Hölzer: "please do not send me any more of his rifles."

Wistar's correspondence with Hölzer survives at the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. The info above comes from Rosalind Beiler, Immigrant and Entrepreneur: The Atlantic World of Caspar Wistar, 1650-1750 (Penn State Press, 2008), 145-146.

[backsplash75]

Gents,
I have a crappy pic of the Wistar rifle from Robert Charles Moon's "Morris family of Philadelphia....v4", do we know who the non preferable Suhl gunsmith was?


ETA fun 1774 Ohio river double rifle reference from the backcountry

HANSON'S JOURNAL, APRIL 7—AUGUST 9

[Extract from a Journal kept on the River Ohio in the year 1774- 14J58-84."]

http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&ei=BPuITOvILoP_8AbC7LmOAg&ct=result&pg=PA110&id=zOJEAAAAIAAJ&output=text

1oth. We travelled to Mr. Hardy's, 27 miles the land mountanious with some good bottoms or pieces of Low Grounds,

nth. We travelled to Mr. Kelly's old house 15 miles over a Mountain, and bought a brass kettle for 18 shillings.

6th. We proceeded 3 miles and then landed on a Bottom, which Mr. Floyd surveyed It runs on the River 3 miles, but is narrow, he finished the survey at a small Creek, which he called Nashes creek70  from his valiant behaviour on the following occurrence. While we were surveying, Nash hunted thro' the Bottom & at the Creek met with two Indians, who called him Brother, but attempted to change Guns with him, which Nash refused. When they found he would not change, They would have killed him for her, but he was much on his guard, and they had but one Gun between them. Therefore by his Quickness & Alertness, he got Clear. Soon after the Indian that had no Gun overtook one Mc Culloch and took his double barriled Rifel from him. This alarmed us, and 12 men went in search of the Indians, 6 of them one Way & 6 another. The first 6 men saw the Indian, that had taken the Gun & one of the men fired at him but missed him, we kept under arms until evening...

[rich pierce]

That one looks like a smoothbore or trade gun by the barrel and the guard. Good thread, we keep seeing more and more.

[spgordon]

do we know who the non preferable Suhl gunsmith was?

I don't know. I photographed the entire correspondence & sent it to others, who were interested in having it translated--and, if that happened, they may know more. Perhaps they will weigh in.

[backsplash75]

do we know who the non preferable Suhl gunsmith was?

I don't know. I photographed the entire correspondence & sent it to others, who were interested in having it translated--and, if that happened, they may know more. Perhaps they will weigh in.

Hopefully someone will be a DOLL and help us out. 

[rich pierce]

do we know who the non preferable Suhl gunsmith was?

I don't know. I photographed the entire correspondence & sent it to others, who were interested in having it translated--and, if that happened, they may know more. Perhaps they will weigh in.

Hopefully someone will be a DOLL and help us out. 

Truly inside humor!

[Eric Kettenburg]

Bwa hahaha .  Yeah well you know there were a bunch of Dolls up above Easton, and at a fairly early date.  Including a Caspar, and some rumors of gunsmithery.  But I have yet to find anything concrete, and believe me, I've looked.  Best to stick to the old world, I guess.

[Bill Paton]

Thanks, Backsplash, for the photo information. The photo perfectly fits the description I have read.

Bill Paton

[backsplash75]

Thanks, Backsplash, for the photo information. The photo perfectly fits the description I have read.

Bill Paton

Bill,
No problem! I wish I had better images to share!

[backsplash75]

Kent in Susquehanna's Indians has another possibility in dug parts:

"One of these was a Jaeger with all iron hardware and a full octagonal .55 caliber, 35-inch rifled barrel with a flared muzzle. 
Its iron butt plate had a notch to receive its sliding wooden patch-box cover." p247

See Conestoga parts below, there is also the early gun in Moravian Gunmaking 2







July 3, 1766
The Pennsylvania Gazette

WAS LOST, on the 8th or 9th of May last, on the great Road betwixt HarrisFerry and Shippensburgh, a German rifle Gun,
 about two Feet in the Barrel, large Bore, carved Stock, a white Metal Lion upon the Barrel, near the Lock, with a Scepter
 in his Paw, double Tricker, double Sight, the under Brass or Copper, and the upper Iron. Whoever delivers said Gun to the
 Subscriber, or to Robert Sample, in Carlisle, or to John Miller, above Carlisle, shall have TWO DOLLARS Reward,
paid by me

[lexington1]

Do you believe that the wender in the picture is the one that Caspar Wistar brought with him in 1717? If so I wonder if the trigger guard has been changed. I hope better pictures or description show up of this. This gun reminds me of an early wender that I have. Mine has octagon to round barrels, with one being rifled and has both front and rear sights. The smoothbore barrel has no rear sight and has a rounded front sight. Unfortunately mine has been converted to percussion and the maker marks were probably removed at that time. Mine was brought from Germany several years ago, so no American use, but I brought it up as a comparison.

[backsplash75]

RWg109d- German jager rifle by C Freund . Found in Pennsylvania in the 1930s.

http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gallery/v/album02/album21/album48/RWG109d-+C+Freund+Jager+Rifle+copy.jpg.html

[Stophel]

Considering that SO many Germans in PA came from the region that the Freunds worked, it's not overly surprising that a Freund gun might have been used in colonial America (though the Freund family were pretty high-ranked gunsmiths, making guns of higher than average grade).  There also obviously was some gunsmith (or gunsmiths) working in the Lehigh/Bucks county area that was quite familiar with the styles used by the Freund family.

[Hungry Horse]

 Maybe I’ve just lived a sheltered life, but, I don’t recall ever seeing, or hearing about a short Jaeger style rifle made in America with locally produced parts. All the ones I’ve seen or read about were restocks. I do believe German rifles were imported early on, and influenced American gunsmiths to some degree.

  Hungry Horse

[rich pierce]

Maybe I’ve just lived a sheltered life, but, I don’t recall ever seeing, or hearing about a short Jaeger style rifle made in America with locally produced parts. All the ones I’ve seen or read about were restocks. I do believe German rifles were imported early on, and influenced American gunsmiths to some degree.

  Hungry Horse

Seems even many 1750’s to 1770 longrifles used European locks, barrels, and in many cases furniture. But I agree, there seems to be limited demand for scratch building rifles with barrels 3 feet and under in length.

[Dan Fruth]

  This has been an ongoing search for me. Im trying to find an americanized jaeger from the period. This is a good candidate. The text includes American provenance.

[Stoner creek]

This’ll be a good candidate too.















 It’s gun number 15 in Shumways RCA volume 1.
 German barrel, French lock, American (we are told) stock. All of the mounts were made from sheet brass. I’m calling it an American made piece ( some will make a good case for disputing that statement).

[Stophel]

There is an existing half stock bird gun that is obviously from the same shop as 15...wherever that shop was...

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, I believe 15 and it's sibling are somewhat largely accepted as being American-stocked by now.  I don't recall ever hearing anyone put forth a speculative maker or location, which is kind of refreshing!  I certainly have no clue.  They don't seem tied to anything else.

[mr. no gold]

To my eye, the side plate says that the above rifle was made in America. Small detail, but it closely resembles early plates on rifles of undoubted manufacture here in this country. If the Monmouth rifle had been walnut stocked rather than maple, placing it as having been made here would be an uphill pull.
Dick

[rich pierce]

I agree, sure looks 100% black walnut and stocked here. Great shape considering age!  Bold carving, unsophisticated in some areas.

[Vinnie1158]

 I own a flintlock  Jäger style perhaps either crafted in the American colonies or brought to from Germany. It has a 29" octagonal rifled barrel  and is 44" overall.   It has a double set trigger and no distinguishable carving typical of  known German furniture.   No patchbox on the stock.    There are no distinguishing proof marks except a stamp on the barrel that looks like a crescent /ball with IZ .   So I know no provenance but considering the simplicity may be mid-18th American.   Any thoughts or impression from photo ? 

[rich pierce]

VERY interesting gun. Guessing European military or simple game keepers gun. It would be rare to find an Americanngun of that era in original and fine condition. I like the Oerter-ish front guard extension shape.