Do we desire a Kibler Hawken kit?

[Scota4570]

Mine came out 11#, 54 cal.

[Dan'l 1946]

I'm 75 and have no difficulty carrying either Hawken. I'd really like to see Jim make an early full stock Hawken flintlock. With the large bowed English style trigger guard instead of the flat to the wrist one.  Dan

[R.J.Bruce]

Accurate copies of average, if there ever was such a thing, Hawken rifles, are not going to sell well. In my opinion. Because, just like Hungry Horse said, they are as plain as mud, in addition to being poorly balanced for offhand shooting.

Plain maple & walnut, with ZERO figure, stained dark, and with a durable varnish finish that many suspect was also stained dark. The absolute anthesis of fancy. Which is exactly what most modern shooters want to spend money on, not the fine industrial details that made the Hawken so sturdy. As well as being one of the first American rifles to be capable of shooting heavy powder charges that could reach out to 200 yards to kill a Blackfoot brave intent on taking your hair.

[Leatherbark]

What I would like to see Mr. Kibler make is a Lancaster style flintlock with a swamped 42 inch barrel in .50 caliber few pounds lighter than the Colonial.

Bob

[redheart]

All right all right, Yes they are heavy, but I am 68 and still hunt the hills and timber here with my Hawken or the Dimick. Geeze some of you city softies need to get some exercise. A hollow rib, tapered barrel, 30" barrel or so should manageable for most "hunters", for target work...who cares about the weight?
kw
Montana

Amen Brother, I sure hope Jim isn't listening to all of these citified and sissified softies and self appointed marketing geniuses. To me it's an honor to carry and shoot something that both Bridger and Carson used.

[Dobyns]

To each his own, but I wouldn't be a buyer for a Hawken whether it be half or full stock.

[Scota4570]

As long as we are brain storming, how about a John Armstrong?  IF you want to do one right you need to make most of the lock.  The correct nose caps can not be bought.  He was among the very best.  His rifle were beautiful and shootable.  Having a correct Armstrong flintlock ca 1820 to carve and decorate would get me excited. 

[R.J.Bruce]

To the day I die, I will always feel fondly towards the rifle's built by Sam & Jake Hawken. Pretty, elegant like a good longrifle? Absolutely not. But, there is an industrial kind of raw beauty to what the brothers achieved in an era prior to mass production.

But, at 67 years old, with serious osteoarthritis in both shoulders that is also starting to present itself in other joints; I have to be realistic. Spending money on any kind of heavy rifle, that has stout recoil, is not in my body's best long term interests.

 So, as much as I still have a piece of that teenage lust for a Hawken (the devil on the left shoulder), my common sense (the angel on the right shoulder) says no.

[GANGGREEN]

I'm also probably a "no" vote.  I like the way that they look well enough and I like the romantic notion that these were the guns of the mountain men, but like many/most of you, I find them to be too heavy to wish to tout around very much and I just don't know that I'd keep one (I'd probably buy the kit, build it and sell it, just to say that I did).

I'm also a fan of the more slender and lighter Golden age rifles and would be OK with a late Lancaster, Lehigh, Reading, etc. etc. at around 7-7.5 pounds. 

Someone else mentioned an English sporting rifle and I think that might be kind of neat too, although I greatly prefer flintlock to percussion and would hope that's the way it would go.

[borderdogs]

If Jim Kibler decides to build a Hawken kit they will sell just because he built the kit his reputation is well known in the ML community. Some love them and many hate them, some say they are ugly some say classic but Hawken rifles brings with it a lot of attention. The Bug in my opinion is an ugly car but Volkswagen built and sold millions of them despite what I thought. Whatever Kibler decides to build he will have plenty of customers.
Rob 

[R.J.Bruce]

A flintlock, halfstock, pistol grip, English Sporting Rifle kit with a tapered barrel that was caliber specific (not one size fits all), in calibers from .40 caliber up to .66 caliber would sell very well. Especially, if it could be ordered without the butt plate inletted for those that might be recoil sensitive. Who for any number of reasons might want to have a modern recoil pad installed that mimics the leather-covered pads of the past.

I would love to see a kit like that.

[oldtravler61]

  To me a Hawkins has nothing to do with the American longrifle.
Which this site is named for.
  But practical hunting guns they are  without a doubt.
 When I went out West hunting a few years ago. I was going to take my 54. Lancaster . With a 46 inch Getzs barrel. But the thought of having to smack a bear in the head of need be. I figured my make believe Hawkins was the better choise. Work well it did..
  Oldtravler

[utseabee]

I too had the Hawken bug and always wanted one. Sold it 6 months after having it built. Didn't like the percussion or the patent breech. I would however be interested if he were to build something like a J Henry Lancaster pattern trade  rifle in flintlock or something on that order. It might even be more appropriate for the fur trade era. I am sure whatever Mr. Kibler does will be high quality and historically correct.

[heinz]

interesting thread.  I built several Hawkens back in the mid-1970s.  Solid shooting rifles. I think a Kibler Hawken might be tempting.
SMR bear rifles tend to be big and heavy.  To those who think the Kibler Whitson-based SMR is too light, you need to look at an original Whitson.
And to those waiting on smoothbores, just look up at the forum title in the banner. I have the same opinion of smoothbores as Nathaniel Bumppo.  But, to each his own.

[redheart]

I too had the Hawken bug and always wanted one. Sold it 6 months after having it built. Didn't like the percussion or the patent breech. I would however be interested if he were to build something like a J Henry Lancaster pattern trade  rifle in flintlock or something on that order. It might even be more appropriate for the fur trade era. I am sure whatever Mr. Kibler does will be high quality and historically correct.

You can put me down for a Hawken and a J. Henry. 

[RAT]

Wow! Two pages of comments in one day! We're on a roll!

I too would be interested in an English sporting rifle, if that was the way he was going. I'm not sure it would have as much acceptance with the general public as some on here might believe, but that's Jim's call.

A kit for an English double percussion shotgun would get a lot of attention. But it seems a ton more difficult to pull off.

I wouldn't mind a good copy of an 1840's percussion full stock. These are around for study to make a good copy. With a 38" long barrel, 1", in .54 cal make's it a reasonable weight. It's still not a fur trade era gun, but most event authorities would probably let it pass.

Just to be clear, I've only owned 2 percussion rifles in the last 32 years. All the rest have been flint, so I'm not pushing percussion because I'm a percussion guy. I just want an authentic copy, and that means copying an original.

The "Smithsonian" Hawken is stamped "S. Hawken", which means it was made after Jacob's death in 1849. So, it's not a fur trade era gun. I've only seen photos, I never examined the rifle in person. Someone recently gave me a copy of the December 1977 article from The Buckskin Report about this rifle. The article raises questions about it being originally made as flint. Not having seen the gun, I won't debate that. In any case, it's not an 1820's era gun.

With North Star West now gone, I'd like to see a good NW trade gun kit. With both 42" and 36" barrel lengths offered.

Not ANOTHER Lancaster kit... please. 18th century stuff is everywhere... but not much 19th century stuff... the market needs a little variety.

[RAT]

A J. J. Henry English pattern or new English pattern would be great! The Rifle Shoppe offers these as kits, but I'm still waiting on a tang I ordered from them in January.

[flinchrocket]

Don’t forget the J.J.Henry steel mounted rifle.

[Hungry Horse]

 Obviously the Montana contingency here has never hunted the Pacific coastal range. Jed Smith said it was the toughest most inhospitable range he had ever encountered. I would have to agree. Oh, and by the way California A zone season is in August, and September, when its likely to be a hundred degrees or better. And, the bucks won’t be stupefied with the rut.
 Oh, I don’t hunt anymore, because I wore my knees out hiking this rugged country for the best part of sixty years.
  So, I don’t need a twelve pound rifle, or a .54 caliber either, ya see I shoot em’ in the end with the head on it.

  Hungry Horse

[Clark Badgett]

There are lots of ways to go about getting a Hawken. As a couple of people mentioned a couple of replies above mine, one of the J.J. Henry's would be a nice option and those were fur trade era, as were some English imports, and no one, to my knowledge, even offers parts to make those unless you want to wait a few years to get them.

And I'm anxiously awaiting the Kibler fowler when it comes out. I rather like smoothbores AND rifles.

[RAT]

Unfortunately there are no documented original J. J. Henry steel mounted rifles in existence. According to Hanson in Encyclopedia of the Fur Trade Vol 1-Firearms of the Fur Trade, The AFC ordered just 70 total. The AFC first order of 10 rifles was in 1831. He states that the one rifle in the Smithsonian thought to be an original is marked "ES" on the barrel. It's only supposition that this was in any way connected to J. J. Henry.

[Herb]

The evolution of the more than 50 Hawken rifles I have built, and what I can still shoot at age 88 1/2, might be of interest.
In April 2004 this was a .54 Bridger-style being built from a barrel-inletted blank.  It weighed 9 lbs 7 oz, and I shot it a few thousand times.  It finally was too heavy for me.

I engraved the lock after an original.

Me with it in 2014.

November 2007, a .58 fullstocked flint rifle.  9 pounds 6 ounces.  Sold it to a friend.

November 2011.  Another ,58 full stock flinter.  Here I fell on a rock while elk hunting.  Repaired it.  Taylor bought it for Hatchet Jack, who by June of this year had put over 13,000 rounds through it.  Nine pounds seven ounces.

September 2014.  A Hawken-inspired .58 flint Plains rifle.  Good for hunting, but too heavy for shooting matches.

October 2015.  Me at age 82 hunting elk with my first Bridger copy.  .54 caliber.  Too heavy now for match shooting , I gave it to a nephew. 

I'll break this off and come back in a bit.

[Herb]

At age 84 I wanted a lighter antelope rifle.  This is a Hawken-inspired rifle, built with a .50 caliber 32" swamped Rice Jaeger barrel, seven pounds 12 ounces.

The evolution-  A very close copy of the Bridger Hawken, 11 pounds 4 ounces.  Next, my first Bridger copy with a 32 inch GRRW barrel, what I had.  10 pounds 14 ounces.  I shot it a few thousand times, then gave it to a nephew. A Carson copy with a special order Pecatonica stock, 15/16 x 31 1/8" barrel, about 8 pounds 12 ounces.  Last, a Carson copy with a 15/16 x 31 1/8" I built from a blank, eight pounds 14 ounces.

March 2021  Me shooting that Pecatonica stocked .54 Hawken at age 88.  Won that shoot, too.

The Carson built from a blank with a 15/16 x 31 1/8" barrel.  This is a really good hunting rifle, and a size and weight that I can shoot at age 88.  I think most people could shoot this sized rifle.

[mshugg]

This one in the Smithsonian is what I would like to see in original flintlock form. It was obviously a flintlock that was converted. I saw it at the Smithsonian when I was there several years ago.

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955

The Smithsonian Hawken has a flintlock converted to percussion, but other than the lock, there is zero evidence that the rifle was flint. The lock panel isn’t notched for the cock to stop on the lock plate. The breach is a percussion bolster. It’s much more likely Sam used an old flintlock converted to percussion on a built to be percussion full stock, than that the rifle was restocked, rebreached and the lock was reused.

[Craig Wilcox]

I would commit to a 12-bore fowler from Jim Kibler.  Even pay up front right now if he makes it convertible to a cane.  Hard to get around without my walking stick any more, and it would be lovely if a duck or turkey gun could be converted!

Going to be 76 in a bit more than 4 weeks, might as well treat myself to a nice present.