Author Topic: Do we desire a Kibler Hawken kit? (Read 17945 times)

RAT · « **on:** August 30, 2021, 05:33:14 AM »

There was enough discussion on the other thread about Jim's comment about a Hawken kit that I thought I'd start a new topic.

What most people envision as a "Hawken" is typically a late period post Jacob, and even post Sam Hawken rifle. Rifles are stamped "S. Hawken" but that doesn't mean they were stocked by him. Most date to the 1860's. These are not fur trade era guns. But they tend to be the more common rifles that have survived. They are also pretty standardized in styling and parts. Therefore, this makes a good candidate for duplication as a modern kit.

Rifles stamped "J. & S. Hawken" still exist, but most exhibit post 1840 styling and parts. They would have been made before Jacob's death in 1849. These are also not fur trade era rifles. Both full stock and half stock rifles exist. One (half stock) was owned by Andrew Sublette when he moved to California. Another one (full stock) was taken to California by James Clyman. While both these men were involved in the fur trade, these rifles were not used by them during that time.

I'm only aware of 3 or 4 rifles that we can say were "probably" made in the 1830's (the fur trade era). We only know of one rifle that is authentically dated. At least, it's the only one I'm aware of. The "Atchison" rifle that used to reside on loan at the Buffalo Bill Center for the West in Cody, WY. It's dated 1836, which puts it in the fur trade era. This rifle should be familiar to people on this forum. It's mounted in fine silver and was made for a man in St. Louis who operated steam boats on the Mississippi. It can be copied for a fur trade era rifle, but not precisely. Certain assumptions would have to be made to make a normal person's rifle. Basically you'd be creating a "fantasy rifle".

And keep in mind all of these are percussion, no Hawken-made flintlock guns are known to exist today.

If someone suggested a kit for a short barreled 1760's Lancaster rifle mounted in iron hardware with a banana patchbox, I think it would be met with general disagreement with the occasional "you can make whatever you like, just don't call it historically correct".

This is the reason I'd advocate, and be interested in purchasing, a classic late period Hawken kit. People have other opinions, and I'm interested in keeping that conversation going to give Jim an idea of where the market might be.

RAT · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2021, 05:41:16 AM »

Here's information about the "Atchison" Hawken...

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/81/3290/silver-mounted-jacob-samuel-hawken-percussion-halfstock-rifle

redheart · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:07:04 AM »

Who could resist buying a Kibler kit of the Carson Hawken is what I'd like to know. :
I re-enact the Fur Trade Era too, but that sure wouldn't stop me from buying one, or two, or three or ?

rich pierce · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:34:04 AM »

Most don’t want a 9.5-11 pound rifle for general use. That’s the issue with developing a Hawken rifle kit that is authentic. The Kibler SMR is about 2 pounds or more lighter than the average original SMR from what I’ve handled and seen in books that share data. So, it’s a great offhand rifle most can handle and carry comfortably, and contributes to its popularity. When Hawken rifles are big bore to reduce weight I don’t find them comfortable. I’m not a wuss and I know how to hold them.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2021, 07:06:35 AM »

Jim has said that a Hawken is on the short list. He wants to do a fowler first. It was answered in one of his Q/A youtube videos. I think he could corner the market on Hawken kits. I'd buy a Hawken as soon as I could. I will also buy a fowler.

Having built a late halfstock from a plank, I agree that an authentic Hawken is a beast of a rifle. I would not want to carry mine far or shoot it much. It was a bucket list rifle.

From what I can gather, the issue is that he is running full throttle as is. His is a very small shop. He does not have a big factory with a bunch of employees. He needs to make sound financial and strategic decisions. Sometimes over expanding a small business to fast goes very wrong.

redheart · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2021, 08:58:24 AM »

Quote from: rich pierce on August 30, 2021, 06:34:04 AM

Most don’t want a 9.5-11 pound rifle for general use. That’s the issue with developing a Hawken rifle kit that is authentic. The Kibler SMR is about 2 pounds or more lighter than the average original SMR from what I’ve handled and seen in books that share data. So, it’s a great offhand rifle most can handle and carry comfortably, and contributes to its popularity. When Hawken rifles are big bore to reduce weight I don’t find them comfortable. I’m not a wuss and I know how to hold them.

Like you, I love the real Hawken for what it is. I know it's not a light weight rifle and I don't want one that sombody figured out how to take two or more pounds off of. Besides, the horse or mule was intended to bear the weight of the rifle 95% of the time. I think the problem with modern man is that you can't build upper body strength sitting in front of a computer all day. I think that's why your average "Harvey Milktoast" is satisfied with a Thompson center, but some of these guys even complain about the weight of one of those things.

Birddog6 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2021, 01:45:19 PM »

Well, most fellers have never shot a real Hawken, so some THINK they want one as they like the history & nostalgia & looks of it. Heck I have always wanted one from day one in ML's. I still do want one, hanging on the wall. But to actually shoot that 11# beast, is like shouldering a boat oar with a boat anchor tied on the end of it.

Few men can actually handle a real one with any accuracy, that I have seen. Most that have them are shooting 8-9# look-a-likes. That 11# rifle & the way it is ? not balanced ? Tremendous weight on your forearm & back if you shoot one very long, compared to other rifles. How many 11# Hawkens you see being shot in Territorial Matchs ? None. There is a reason for that.

It's a awesome looking rifle & I have no doubt that Jim would make a superb kit. But I think most of them will be closet ghosts if they are real Hawkens. I know this ol man could never handle one. 50 yrs ago, yes, but those are days long gone. I think Jim would find other styles would sell much better & be more appreciated. His kits are the most precise kits I have ever seen. Heck, even the shipping crate alone is awesome !

jrb · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2021, 02:34:31 PM »

Well personally, since you're asking, no, i have 0 interest in guns of that period.

Frank · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2021, 03:15:38 PM »

This one in the Smithsonian is what I would like to see in original flintlock form. It was obviously a flintlock that was converted. I saw it at the Smithsonian when I was there several years ago.

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2021, 04:06:33 PM »

I have absolutely no interest in a Kibler Hawken rifle.

R.J.Bruce · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2021, 04:10:36 PM »

I made the very point that RAT is making here about the late period S. Hawken rifles over on the Muzzleoading Forum several days ago. As Doc White points out on his website, a properly executed Hawken rifle costs serious money to build. Herb, MtMeek, and others here that are capable of building accurate copies of any era Hawken rifle from the plank also know how much it costs to duplicate the hot charcoal bluing, the fire bluing, and especially the bone charcoal color case hardening of the parts that require it. Another issue is the time required to modify what current castings are still available into the correct shapes so that they look like accurate Hawken parts.

If Jim Kibler were to invest his time and resources into an accurate Hawken rifle kit then I agree that a fullstock percussion rifle makes the most sense for the current day hunter to own as regards to the finished weights of the rifles.

I grew up in the 1960's as a pre-teen LUSTING for a half stock Hawken rifle. Had purchased the Roubidoux plans by age 14. At age 23, while serving in the military, a fellow soldier showed me his original S. Hawken rifle that he had purchased in 1976. It was .52 caliber, and my FIRST THOUGHT upon picking it up was how heavy it was compared to my .45 caliber longrifle with a 13/16" × 40" long straight octagon barrel.

It was at that AH HA moment that I realized that a true copy of a Hawken rifle WAS NOT GOING TO SUIT my favored method of hunting. Which was still hunting the Eastern forests of the United States.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2021, 04:13:00 PM »

The Hawken shop kit will work well for those who want such a rifle. I think a Kibler quality kit for an English Sporting or target
rifle would be well received
Bob Roller

R.J.Bruce · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2021, 04:32:34 PM »

That original .52 caliber rifle weighed nearly 12 pounds.

bob in the woods · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2021, 04:51:18 PM »

Zero interest on my part. Can't wait for the smoothbore, though !

deepcreekdale · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2021, 05:03:37 PM »

I am sure if Jim made it, it would be first class in quality. But, I also agree with those posters who state later Hawkens are heavy, hard to handle and were not really fur trade era guns. More likely built for the California gold rush traveler or buffalo hunter who shot them off of cross sticks. I have built several over the years but don't like shooting them. I would have no interest, mainly as I don't enjoy building kits but also because a Hawken, while iconic, is not that useful of a gun. I know Jim has to build what the market demands to keep his business going but wouldn't it be cool if he could do limited runs of more esoteric guns? Jaegers, English Sporting guns, French fusils or, dare I say it, a Catalan miquelet?

rich pierce · « **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2021, 05:04:14 PM »

Quote from: bob in the woods on August 30, 2021, 04:51:18 PM

Zero interest on my part. Can't wait for the smoothbore, though !

No more smoothbores for you Bob! Unless shooting many will cause you to lose focus or familiarity and shoot wild now and then.

moleeyes36 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 30, 2021, 05:43:28 PM »

Quote from: bob in the woods on August 30, 2021, 04:51:18 PM

Zero interest on my part. Can't wait for the smoothbore, though !

My thoughts exactly, Bob.

Don Richards

David Rase · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2021, 05:55:37 PM »

I don't see a big enough market for a Hawken kit. Several reasons. As stated earlier, it is a big heavy rifle. We are an aging demographic and most of us are selling or trading off our heavy large caliber rifles for smaller lighter guns. Second, the majority of muzzleloading interest lies in the mid to late 18th century and early 19th century flintlock era, not the percussion era. A Hawken rifle, like a Jaeger rifle, has a dedicated following. Unfortunately, this following is too small for a business to invest the time, money and tooling to make it a viable investment, just as making left handed locks is not a sound business investment.
David

flinchrocket · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:13:16 PM »

I agree with mr. Rase. also, even the people who would want a Hawken want something different flint,percussion,full stock,half stock,40cal.,58cal.gesso, which one you going to try and market?

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:16:30 PM »

I always thought there was something wrong with me, but now I see I’m not alone. From day one I never had an interest in owning a Hawken replica. I used to listen to perfectly sane people moon over these incredibly plain, and obnoxiously heavy half stocked rifles with usually very plain wood, and some of the poorest finishes I’ve ever seen on an antique gun, and wonder what I was missing.
In my opinion they are (with a very few glaring exceptions) the sledgehammer of the muzzleloading world. Designed to take endless abuse, and continue to function long after they shouldn’t. But a thing of beauty they are not, at least to me.

Hungry Horse

45-110 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:31:10 PM »

All right all right, Yes they are heavy, but I am 68 and still hunt the hills and timber here with my Hawken or the Dimick. Geeze some of you city softies need to get some exercise. A hollow rib, tapered barrel, 30" barrel or so should manageable for most "hunters", for target work...who cares about the weight?
kw
Montana

flinchrocket · « **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:33:33 PM »

Exactly HH,but they were made sturdy for a reason. Would anyone want to be 400 miles from civilization,surrounded by grizzly bears, mountain lions and Indians with a daisy BB gun with the wrist broke. No thanks

David Rase · « **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:41:58 PM »

Just so you all know, I am not anti-Hawken. My earlier comments are solely based from a business standpoint. Here is a photo of mine. I have owned this one for over 20 years.

Daniel Coats · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:42:49 PM »

I like Hawken rifles to a point and have built several some were VERY heavy. I've also owned a couple by top makers of today. Here comes the "to a point" part. Every time someone offered me a nickel more than I paid for it I sold it.

ScottH · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2021, 08:02:29 PM »

My Bergmann Plains rifle in .54 caliber with a tapered barrel made by B. Hoyt weighs 11+ pounds.
I love the gun but I would not commission another one.
I would be interested in one if it weighed about 9 pounds, definitely under 10 pounds. If Jim Kibler could do that, and I'm sure it is possible, I'm in. (Thinking a 30 - 31" barrel that is 1" at the breech tapered to 7/8" at the muzzle in .54 caliber 1:48" twist, maybe a .58 caliber.)

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Author Topic: Do we desire a Kibler Hawken kit? (Read 17945 times)

Birddog6