Author Topic: Bucks co. Side open patchboxes (Read 3224 times)

Scott Bumpus · « **on:** January 09, 2022, 06:00:55 AM »

I have been studying the A verner. And John schuler side open patchboxes. I can see the stud locations on the lid but where are the release buttons? Have looked over pics in rca and kra dvd. They don’t show up in the buttplate or tor plate.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2022, 06:53:55 AM »

It's hidden under the 'lollipop' forward portion of the toeplate, which is flexible. Push on the lollipop and presto, the box opens.

Scott Bumpus · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2022, 07:33:06 AM »

Thank you sir. I noticed some wear in that area but thought maw that can’t be it. Very cleaver idea and must be pretty universal for bucks guns.

Scott Bumpus · « **Reply #3 on:** January 09, 2022, 07:45:58 AM »

Anyone have a pic of how the internal mechanism is set up.

Frozen Run · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2022, 08:04:01 AM »

https://www.antiquegunroom.net/fullsize.php?item=1119&photo=08&title=John+Schuler+Bucks+County+Kentucky+Rifle&price=21000.00

Scott Bumpus · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2022, 08:14:53 AM »

Thank you don. That makes sense now.

flehto · « **Reply #6 on:** January 09, 2022, 05:09:50 PM »

Here's some pics, Also one pic of the BC RR pipes ..the lid opener spring and its location is borrowed from Taylor Sapergia. ....gets the opener spring off the Pbox "floor".

Tom Currie · « **Reply #7 on:** January 09, 2022, 07:04:58 PM »

Hammering brass will make it a bit springy which is what you need for this application. I'd experiment with that to see how that works prior to making the actual toe plate.

Scott Bumpus · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2022, 12:37:37 AM »

Held a toe plate in the vise and pushed on the round end with my thumb. It didn’t move. 1/8. Brass I think maybe it need to be thinned down on the round end.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2022, 01:51:13 AM »

Quote from: Scott Bumpus on January 10, 2022, 12:37:37 AM

Held a toe plate in the vise and pushed on the round end with my thumb. It didn’t move. 1/8. Brass I think maybe it need to be thinned down on the round end.

Start with 1/16" stock.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2022, 02:09:16 AM »

1/8" is way WAY too thick for a toeplate. Most are @ .040 to .050, which is even less than 1/16". These guys were not using crazy thick brass; brass was expensive.

flehto · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2022, 03:05:47 PM »

The toeplate shown was made from .040 thick brass and was used as rec'd....which is half hard. The travel to pop open the lid is only .04 which could be slightly more and doesn't give a permanent set to the toeplate. The pushrod has a spherical radius on the toeplate end and a reduced dia which fits into a hole in the leaf spring on the other end. The toelate shown is my variation w/ the addition of a surrounding plate.....Fred

Dave B · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2022, 03:47:39 PM »

I did one like this but it is possible to not have to put the dogleg in the shaft if the finial is not too far up the toe of the rifle.

flehto · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2022, 02:14:51 PM »

Hi....have never needed to form a "dog leg" on the push rod.....a little planning eliminates a dog leg....Fred

Scott Bumpus · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2022, 04:40:59 PM »

What thickness brass do you use for the patchbox?

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2022, 08:57:01 PM »

I've made a lot of patchboxes from .062" thick brass sheet that I used to be able to purchase at a local store. But more recently, I've been using brass I cut from a door kick sheet which is .040" thick, and it works far more easily. I bought some brass from Rich Pierce that also make a good box, and it's .050" thick. I built only one box from .032" thick brass sheet, and found it worked, but is very thin and allows no room for error.

flehto · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2022, 09:01:11 PM »

I started out using .06 but went to .05 and used it for the majority of the Pboxes.... for both the Bucks County and the Lancaster types. I think .06 is a slight overkill but sometimes used whatever thickness I had in stock. The 2 Pboxes shown were made from .05 thick brass. If the inletting depth is irregular perhaps .06 would be better.....Fred

JTR · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2022, 11:08:49 PM »

Obviously, Fred has good luck with .05 / .06 thickness when he makes a gun.

On the other hand, my original Bucks County (George Weiker Attrib.) rifle has a PB door thickness of about .03", to about .035". The muzzle cap is about the same, and the RR thimbles a bit thinner.

Silver inlays, on originals seem to be about .15". Maybe a bit less.

Scott Bumpus · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2022, 11:43:24 PM »

Thank you gentlemen for the info.

flehto · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2022, 02:17:24 AM »

JTR.....I think I read somewhere that the BC lids made of .030-.035 brass were bent so that they sprung open w/o using an opener spring? Mostly used .050 thick brass for Pboxes and .040 for Mcaps and RR pipes. The silver cheek stars were made from .060 stock so one central screw held it in w/o any buckling. Made separate hinge plates for the BC side openers from .030-.040 thick brass so very little hinge protruded above the lid. The hinge pins were .060 dia music wire.

I no longer build LRs because of very poor eyesight but have 2 regrets.....never used an open ended BC Mcap and didn't build a BC w/ a Dale Johnson lock. At the time, I thought the open ended Mcap was less petite than a Mcap w/o a RR groove viewed from the side. Throughout the time I built BCs, your knowledge and offered info on BC LRs was very helpful....Thanks....Fred

JTR · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2022, 02:22:19 AM »

Thanks Fred.
You built a fine looking rifle!
John

Not English · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2022, 08:08:31 AM »

I try to never use a spring to open the lid if at all possible. As Fred said, it takes nothing to torque a pb lid to make it spring open. If well inlet, you'll never see any surface deviations. It really doesn't take much of a bend/twist to make it work.

My method for a hidden pb release is to inlet the toe plate using 1/16" brass, then drill the hole to the pb latch. Once it's set up and inlet, I file the inside of the toe plate to make it quite flexible. Youy do't need to do the whole toe plate, only the part you want to flex. Occasionally, you'll need to deepen the inlet wher the flexible part is. What I like about this, is that it adhere's pretty close to the KISS principle.

elkhorne · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2022, 08:17:43 AM »

JTR,
Is there any way you could possibly share some more photos of your original Bucks rifle that you showed us the patch box above. I think all of us would benefit from seeing an original to go from. Things might be the ramrod pipes, side plate, muzzle cap, trigger guard and trigger and sights. I got one underway but this could help me get closer to the original. Thanks again.
elkhorne

Scott Bumpus · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2022, 09:32:35 PM »

What do y’all think? Tried locating patchbox 2 ways. Hi and low. Which one is better. All helpful comments welcome.

flehto · « **Reply #24 on:** January 20, 2022, 03:24:34 AM »

Nice work on that BC,.I think the best Pbox position is the 2nd pic down. My first BC side openers had parallel sides but shortly used ones w/ angled sides. Please post pics when she's done......Fred

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Author Topic: Bucks co. Side open patchboxes (Read 3224 times)