Collector's Cartel

[okieboy]

 Today, Craig Wilcox mentioned a "collector's cartel".! Who or what are they? A search of the site turned up nothing. They sound nefarious.

[Stoner creek]

I’ve heard mention of that outfit. Mysterious characters indeed. There seems to be two of them that live south of Tennessee and the other one somewhere between Virginia and Illinois. All they leave behind are tables with CVA and Investarms for common folk to pick through. Be very careful around them ifn you can identify them.

[Craig Wilcox]

There was a reference to a "cartel" elsewhere under the topic of Antique Gun Collecting.  My apologies for not better noting the whereabouts of the statement.  It was noted that they usually operated in threes, with one discovering and disparaging about faults on the piece, #2 enlarging on the "faults", and #3 offering a very low price to a "newly educated" seller.

[Stoner creek]

Yep that’s not the behavior of the other cartel that I was talking about.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I familiar with the legend of the “collector’s cartel”. I was introduced to their existence a number of years ago when offered a very nice “Solomon Reed” rifle and told to buy it before the “Cartel” learned it was available. It was a wonderful rifle that got away. Indeed, the “Cartel” got it and I haven’t seen it since. The “Cartel” is a group of highly experienced and well connected collectors who keep each other well-informed on available guns and price trends. Shrouded in mystery much like the Masons. They are everywhere and nowhere- hidden in pain sight. Their numbers are allegedly shrinking. There were originally four of them and the number is not supposed to exceed four. Over the years two have died and been replaced by two more.

[jdm]

I sense a new History channel  show coming  right after  Oak Island!

[Shreckmeister]

Let’s just say there are multiple cartels some more powerful than others.  I think they are entitled to do what they do. They’ve spent their lives in this pursuit. You don’t have to sell them your rifle. Their years of networking brings them opportunities we can dream of. Yes they are older and will pass like us all. Let’s not forget they’ve also advanced our hobby greatly.

[Austin]

What he said!

[Dennis Glazener]

Never looked at me as either a big collector nor a member of any cartel. BUT I have over the years notified people that I think might have an interest in a rifle/pistol that I have seen for sale that I have no interest in buying. I view that as just being helpful to friends/acquaintances. I would hope they would return the favor if the tables were turned.

I don't know and can't prove it but I suspect the same thing happens in all areas of collecting.
Dennis

[Eric Kettenburg]

I find this thread utterly bewildering and I have no idea what anyone is talking about.  Sarcasm?  Serious?  Light humor?   

Wonder what would happen if the 'Collector's Cartel' had a showdown with the 'Allentown Mafia?'

Probably a West Side Story dance-off.

I am so confused.

[rich pierce]

I find this thread utterly bewildering and I have no idea what anyone is talking about.  Sarcasm?  Serious?  Light humor?   

Wonder what would happen if the 'Collector's Cartel' had a showdown with the 'Allentown Mafia?'

Probably a West Side Story dance-off.

I am so confused.

When worlds collide.

Sorry to add to the silliness. Kind of sorry?

[WESTbury]

Possible Collector's Cartel reference.

Woah, Captjoel, you hit the old nail on the head.  And in this general part of the country, we have roving cartels of bandits who work like a wolf pack.  Wham, bam, zing...coming from both sides...they got your pants down and work completed before you even know what hit you. 

One guy will come up and asks a price, then really slams the gun.  Then #2 comes up and says, "Yeah, #1 told me about this piece,  too bad this and that are not right." 

About 1/2 hour later, after you've had time to absorb all this sorry news, #3 comes up and, as a gesture of friendship, offers you 1/2 your asking price, just to help you out. 

Warning: when certain people start panning your piece, you might as well raise the price, because it is good and the cartel wants it.  They often don't speak for themselves, but for a snitch buyer.   Don't fall prey to the weasel packs.  It's the oldest play in the book.   They also occasionally conduct a phone smear of your piece.  And it also works the other way; they never badmouth a piece of another cartel member, no matter how abysmal it is. 

Just a thought.  If all of us would simply refuse to buy heavily rebuilt guns for, say, 3 years, wouldn't prices of the junk automatically come down to nearer what it is worth?  If the ladies all got together and stopped furnishing sex to the warlike boys, the boys would soon stop making war, at least temporarily.  JWHeckert

[Avlrc]

"Wonder what would happen if the 'Collector's Cartel' had a showdown with the 'Allentown Mafia?'

Probably a West Side Story dance-off."

Thats funny

[Avlrc]

Never looked at me as either a big collector nor a member of any cartel. BUT I have over the years notified people that I think might have an interest in a rifle/pistol that I have seen for sale that I have no interest in buying. I view that as just being helpful to friends/acquaintances. I would hope they would return the favor if the tables were turned.

I don't know and can't prove it but I suspect the same thing happens in all areas of collecting.
Dennis

I can attest to that.   About ten years ago Dennis notified me about a Sheetz rifle for sale at some little know shop.  I have had a few collectors tell me about guns that they think I may like.  But most buy the rifle then try to make a buck on me & that is fine too. 

[bama]

Part of the game that collectors play, especially the old dogs that have been doing this awhile. You know what they say, " if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch and whine". I have been part of the group that has been accosted by the old dogs but just chalked it up to a learning experience. I have also done my share of whining but I am still playing the game. Just remember, the old dogs wouldn't bother telling you how bad it is if they did not want it, hang tough. At the same time there are many of the old dogs that will help you and guide you along. You just got to be smart enough to know which is which.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

My comments above were a bit on the "mischievous/humorous" side and intended that way. Like other members stated, relationships prompt discussion, discussion promotes exchange of ideas/observations and often leads to trades and purchases.

I really don't subscribe to the "collector's cartel" idea. But I have been exposed to the "good old boy" cartel.........

Hope I didn't offend anyone. The Solomon Reed Rifle did get away.

[Stoner creek]

Those three that I mentioned in a previous post are still out there on the prowl. I had a close encounter with one of those guys a few weeks ago. Be very careful!

[Lucky R A]

         Nobody, but nobody has to sell to anybody.  If you own a nice gun and have it for sale at a predetermined price--then that is the price.  The ball is now in your court if you want to dicker on the price, then play the game.  If you hang tough you may own the piece for a few more shows or years.  It will eat nothing while you own it, hopefully you initially bought it because you liked it.  It you bought it because you saw a significant "upside" in the price, you now have to trust your judgement or second guess yourself. 
         Lots of friends tell other collector friends about certain guns that are available.  I have a friend that knows that i like Bucks and Western PA guns.  He often shoots me a call or e-mail about a certain gun---Heck he even once e-mailed me that i had bought a nice Bucks Co. rifle, and to send him a check for $XXXX.  Glad i like the gun.   
         Guys who constantly deal in antique guns are specialized antique dealers looking to buy low and sell high.  If you admit it we all like that---just don't whine when you get beat at the game, you will do better the next time.
Ron

[utseabee]

   I am relatively new to collecting original long rifles and my collection is pretty small compared to others but I have found that 99% of the people at the shows to be very helpful and informative. Sure, I've had some low ball offers, but I didn't sell. I know what I paid for my rifles and what I would have to get if I were to sell. If someone picks apart something and then makes me a real low offer, I just turn down the offer. As far as buying goes so far, I've either purchased off someone I know and trust or had someone with more knowledge examine it with me.  I didn't get into this to make money, I do this because enjoy it. We have all over paid and under paid for something. That's how we learn.

[Austin]

At the end of the day; if you have the passion to learn, perseverance to do the networking, and the money to play, you can be a member also. It’s capitalism at its finest! Those guys put actually put a floor under anything collectible….. if you want something all you have to do is outbid the ‘traders’ and its yours.
PS I don’t play with those guys but i know and respect them.

[smart dog]

Let’s not forget they’ve also advanced our hobby greatly.

Hi,
Some have but I don't think all have. Some bury historically important guns in private collections that few ever see for years.

dave

[Shreckmeister]

Let’s not forget they’ve also advanced our hobby greatly.

Hi,
Some have but I don't think all have. Some bury historically important guns in private collections that few ever see for years.

dave

They all come back in the light some day.

[AZshot]

I'm with the other commenter above, I have no idea why someone would worry about this.  Every gun show, antique fair, estate sale is full of different personalities.  If someone comes up to something I'm selling and "schools" me of why I'm priced too high, I smile and let them.  Then keep the price where I decided I want it.  I'm not influenced by supposed "experts" at places I sell.  Neither the low-ballers nor the high graders.  If I'm too high, I'll realize it - at the END of the show with no buyers.

Many times in my 58 years I've had someone walk up to me at a gun show when I walk in carrying a VERY common gun and pull the "what cha got there sonny?" Since I was 16 I knew they're trying to scoop something cheap.  I let them look, let them give me a price if they want....tell them I'll think about it, and walk away.  If you've got a treasure, they just played their hand....and blew it, if the next guy I sell it to gives me MY price.  The high-grader shills are more common.  Once I picked up a gun, realized it's reblued and priced what a high condition original is worth.  I set it back down and someone sidles up and says, "nice gun! you gonna get it?" 
Me: no. 
He: "looks like a good one, why not?"
Me: "Because it's been reblued, the stock refinished, the rear sight is wrong, and this is broken. It's priced double what a GOOD one costs."
He: "hmm...well...I really don't know too much about those."
Later: I see him behind the same table as the seller - he's his partner, sharing a table.  Um....right. 

Rule of haggling: Don't trust someone who says something is worth a lot less, or a lot more, than what your experience is telling you.

[Buck2]

All,

There is an element of fact to the subject. Typically it's not applicable to actual students of the Long Rifle, but more towards the inexperienced collector with deep pockets - Dr. Sirkin is a perfect example - surely we haven't forgotten that debacle. The few individuals reside within our circles, but the targets usually are not. Just my 2 cents.

Buck

[Old Time Hunter]

Thankfully I have only sold  guns that I  had purchased to get another one that I was after,  a "package deal" . I never had an inclination to sell any of my antique guns. After medical school and internship , I started my practice . With a wife and two small children it was a few years before I had any "extra" money for guns. I attended a Kentucky Rifle Association show in the early 70s and , after seeing the "collectors" in action , I vowed to never allow myself to get financially desperate enough to sell any antique guns!   When I posted on this forum about my Young rifle and pistol , I was bombarded with responses . Quite a few were from people that are interested in the guns {which I will post photos of , as soon as my daughter arrives from Florida} and , a few were "warnings" from people telling me that they have great value. I also had a few that were "very pushy" about wanting to purchase them!  When I die , my family can do as they wish , till then  NOT for SALE!!