Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard

[Dphariss]

Its stocked very much like an English fowler other than the full octagonal barrel. Running a bore scope down the bore might show the remains of rifling or not. It could have been made either way. The rear sight is not a identifier for being a rifle. Lots of Trade Guns in the West have a rear sight of one sort or another. The scroll TG was in use in England before Jake moved to St Louis. But J&S were using them by about 1830 at least. Probably from seeing them on guns coming out of Birmingham. Or parts coming in from the same place.
This is a very intriguing piece of history and looks pretty “Western” to me.

Tryon imported Birmingham guns. I'd put money on this being a Birmingham gun with a Tryon stamp. Possibly Liverpool. Everything on it screams English but not London quality.

Of course its Birmingham. But HERE it looks like a gun for Western use.
Birmingham was the 900 poound Gorilla of gun making and I would put money that most of the guns and parts Tryon sold came from Birmingham. He could get lock really cheap, by the barrel full from Birmingham.
The is an excerpt from W. Greeners “The Gun” 1835

Opps hit the wrong key

[Dphariss]

Every gun barrel made in England was run through the proof house. Or was supposed to be. They think that Manton filed off the proof marks.
So far as “London” quality. A lot of the stuff marked “London” were made in Birmingham.

[KMac]

Great information gentlemen!

So it seems that parts could have been purchased by Tryon from Birmingham (maybe not the barrel) and stocked/assembled by Tryon for a possible western trade gun with a larger caliber.
The possible dates could be from about 1816 - 1835, possibly to 1840?

I had forgot to include the length of the barrel and the images. Barrel length was 39 1/2 inches from breech to muzzle and 55 total inches in length.

[KMac]

And yes, appears to be a swamped barrel.

[rich pierce]

Regarding whether stocked here or imported whole, and whether originally flint or not.  I can’t recall English percussion guns with drum and nipple. So if imported whole, it was likely originally flint. Also this is an iron mounted gun; seems odd (to me) to suggest that a flintlock lock was chopped up and converted in England and a drum installed with poor attention to fit between lock and drum (even for an export piece).

If stocked here, and originally rifled (most likely in my view) winner winner chicken dinner for a cool going west gun. But, the stocking is very English looking to me. Can’t recall any big gun shops doing that kind of stocking with that sort of buttplate here.

[Dphariss]

There is at least one J&s Hawken 1/2 stock Mountain Rifle with a 39 and change  inch barrel with a slight swamp. The Hawken at least, and this rifle probably have skelp welded barrels. They “probably” came from England or maybe one of the barrel mills in PA. The Hawken barrel has the nipple seat as part of the forging. I have seen photos of other J&S rifles with similar nipple seats but have never seen them in person or measured the barrels.
Tryon may have stocked the gun in the OP, or may not have. The “Tryon” on the lock simply means they, most likely, were the supplier who imported the lock. From the spacing of the frizzen pivot screw it was likely a late design English Flintlock with a waterproof pan but thats a guess. The waterproof type was already pretty typical of better locks in England by the early 19th c. Semi-Waterproof pans date to a lot earlier 1780 or so. But the export locks tended to lag a behind the better locks in use in England in design. A note from Ramsay Crooks (American Fur Co.)  to J.J. Henry in March 1830 states ..” ..Percussion Locks will not answer at all for the rifles.. be most particular in selecting the Flint Locks required…price being a secondary consideration…waterproof and otherwise excellent”
The Henry “scroll guard”/“New English Pattern” rifles date to the same, I think as to others in my guild,  period as the early J&S Hawken rifles with scroll guards. I think ALL the initial scroll guard Hawkens used English trigger guards. Sorry I digress. But I feel that this rifle falls into line with some 1830-1835 era Rifles by JJ Henry (I got out a book) it is the right caliber, iron mounted, single trigger, right barrel length, However, it lacks a crescent BP and makers name on the barrel. This page from Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 has some interesting information one item I had overlooked previously. ”Long backstrap”?  Tang perhaps? The Hawken Mountain rifles, at least some/most of them, I think are from the early/Mid-1830s still have short tangs.


As I stated before this gun looks “Western” to me and if made for the Indian trade it would have been rifled. The natives it was written, would not have a smoothbore of this weight.

[JHeath]

We have *three* makers to explain: Tryon, Maslin, and W.G. Chance.

It's not just a "scroll guard" question. The OP's trigger plate including its exact shape and engraving, the pointed tang, the buttplate, the escutcheon instead of sideplate, these are all straight-up English sporter. The barrel is not like a London rifle/gun, but this is not a London gun anyway. It is a gun with all English hardware on an English-style stock, marked with the name of a company that imported Birmingham guns and parts. The importer was also a builder who made rifles in a distinct American style that looks nothing like this.

Any explanation needs to cover the four Maslin guns I posted. Supposedly from one guy, two are obviously American longrifles, and the other two are entirely English in hardware and stock design, including the checkered wrist. I don't think anyone would claim the same guy made both. Either Maslin imported the English guns, or he imported an unheard-of English gunsmith to Baltimore or Phila. The simplest answer is that he imported Birmingham guns. Maslin was an exact contemporary of Tryon and moved to Phila. almost exactly when Tryon formally set up a business importing Birmingham guns and watches etc. Again, this suggests that Birmingham guns were being imported for some part of the American market.

We should also explain this rifle. It is of the same puzzle. It is marked W.G. Chance, Birmingham.

Chance had a NYC office and forwarded Birmingham goods to St. Louis. He sold to the American Fur Company.

This rifle has the same typically English TG, trigger plate, tang, escutcheon, checkered wrist. The stock is walnut but has far more drop than any other English sporter I've seen. The drop looks American. But the crescent plate seems to be added. The stock has been thinned by dishing out the left side of the butt to fit a narrower plate. I think this rifle originally had an English-style wide butt with a flat plate. But I think only the left side was dished in order to keep the patchbox, which presumably was original.

This is undoubtedly a Birmingham rifle. But it has un-English stock drop and that odd patchbox. Perhaps some Birmingham manufacturers tried to accomodate what they thought Americans in the fur trade wanted. That is one possible explaination for the bbl on KMac's gun.

At any rate, this is a flint proto-plains-rifle that was built in Birmingham and doesn't look entirely English.

When you look at Tryon, Maslin, and WG Chance together, a picture emerges of Birmingham guns being imported for the trade and influencing what American rifles became in the west.

[JHeath]

Photos of WG Chance having a hard time uploading:

[JHeath]

More WG Chance:

[JHeath]

WG Chance

[JHeath]

WG Chance.

[JHeath]

also, the grain is very course and leads me to believe  it is black walnut.

FWIW America exported lumber to Britain including black walnut for furniture. I don't know the full history but it's possible that Birmingham used it on guns.

[rich pierce]

Nice rifle, looks like converted in England.

[Mike Brooks]

I'll make this point once more.....if it has English proofs on the barrel the gun is of English manufacture. If it does not have proofs the gun was made in the US. Pretty simple.

[Mike Brooks]

AND....imported mounts and locks were common on American guns.

[KMac]

I was looking at the micro film/digital copies of Henry's (1835-1853 Sales & Shipments 1839, 1841, 1844 and 1845) and found this info with "American Fur Co." and has listings for scroll guards - "10 rifles scroll guard Lan. Patn?  $11.25    $112.0"

[KMac]

The digital image for the American Fur Co was date January 29, 1836...

[JHeath]

I'll make this point once more.....if it has English proofs on the barrel the gun is of English manufacture. If it does not have proofs the gun was made in the US. Pretty simple.

I haven't seen either way if these guns do/don't have proof marks. But I don't take the above for gospel because the idea of an American gunsmith who made regionally identifiable longrifles suddenly making such a close copy of an English sporting rifle needs more explaining than the idea of a typically Birmingham export trade gun with one arguably American feature missing its proof marks.

So far:

The Tryon is either a typical Birmingham gun with one odd feature, or an American made gun that is an inexplicable exception. Who in America would have made it? It's like no other American gun. Did an American maker of longrifles radically shift styles to make an English clone? Why? Tryon was a known importer of Birmingham guns. If he wanted a long-barreled Birmingham gun he could have just asked them to send one in the next batch.

The two Maslins are either typical Birmingham guns, or American made guns that are freakishly close copies of English guns. Supposedly Maslin was a lockmaker. The Maslin marked locks I've seen vary so much at least at least some must be imported. I think Maslin was importing Birmingham goods. If he did not import those guns then again what American gunsmith made copies of English guns in Baltimore or Phila? They appear to be B'ham guns with the mark of an American importer active in Phila. at the same time as Tryon. If Maslin put his name on B'ham guns it's sensible to think that Tryon did.

The W.G. Chance appears to have been made in Birmingham with one or two odd American-like features. Chance is known to have imported to St. Louis and to the American Fur Company, through an office he maintained in NY.

There is a pattern here. Either unknown American gunsmiths made difficult-to-explain clones of English flintlocks, or Birmingham trade gun manufacturers sometimes included one or two "American" features when receiving orders from American importers. 

[JHeath]

There is at least one J&s Hawken 1/2 stock Mountain Rifle with a 39 and change  inch barrel with a slight swamp. The Hawken at least, and this rifle probably have skelp welded barrels. They “probably” came from England or maybe one of the barrel mills in PA. The Hawken barrel has the nipple seat as part of the forging. I have seen photos of other J&S rifles with similar nipple seats but have never seen them in person or measured the barrels.
Tryon may have stocked the gun in the OP, or may not have. The “Tryon” on the lock simply means they, most likely, were the supplier who imported the lock. From the spacing of the frizzen pivot screw it was likely a late design English Flintlock with a waterproof pan but thats a guess. The waterproof type was already pretty typical of better locks in England by the early 19th c. Semi-Waterproof pans date to a lot earlier 1780 or so. But the export locks tended to lag a behind the better locks in use in England in design. A note from Ramsay Crooks (American Fur Co.)  to J.J. Henry in March 1830 states ..” ..Percussion Locks will not answer at all for the rifles.. be most particular in selecting the Flint Locks required…price being a secondary consideration…waterproof and otherwise excellent”
The Henry “scroll guard”/“New English Pattern” rifles date to the same, I think as to others in my guild,  period as the early J&S Hawken rifles with scroll guards. I think ALL the initial scroll guard Hawkens used English trigger guards. Sorry I digress. But I feel that this rifle falls into line with some 1830-1835 era Rifles by JJ Henry (I got out a book) it is the right caliber, iron mounted, single trigger, right barrel length, However, it lacks a crescent BP and makers name on the barrel. This page from Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 has some interesting information one item I had overlooked previously. ”Long backstrap”?  Tang perhaps? The Hawken Mountain rifles, at least some/most of them, I think are from the early/Mid-1830s still have short tangs.


As I stated before this gun looks “Western” to me and if made for the Indian trade it would have been rifled. The natives it was written, would not have a smoothbore of this weight.

Interesting.

The Henrys do not have the English buttplate. What about the English engraved trigger plate? The pointed English-style tang? I've seen at least one Henry with a crude version of that. Do the ones you're talking about have a round escutcheon like an ESR, a keyed escutcheon like some Henrys, or a brass sideplate like other Henrys?

Not being contentious. Still learning.

The OP Tryon has every point of an ESR except standing breech, and the barrel is long. The TG and trigger plate are dead ringers. The BP too. Also the escutcheon. And the stock generally.

It's beginning to look like Henry peeled away some American fur trade market from B'ham by offering "English pattern scroll guard rifles" butt with long barrels, crescent plates, and steep drop they knew Americans liked. Henry wouldn't call them that unless people liked and wanted English rifles that they associated with scroll guards.

Meanwhile we have two other rifles that look like B'ham imports except one has a long barrel and the other has steep drop and crescent plate (BP possibly altered by the user). As though B'ham was trying to become more American and Henry more English, competing for the same customers. All hypothetical but it explains some facts.

[Dphariss]

There were some gunstockers in the East that were building English styled rifles. Someplace I have a picture of such a rifle from Philadelphia IIRC. It was on a old American Rifleman cover. But it did have a fancy American patchbox. Have the magazine buried in some book case or box. Somewhere and don’t remember the exact details now.
I am surprised the OP gun is not marked on the barrel. It was a pretty nice rifle.
AND the parts would arrive from England engraved. Much of the engraved inlays and patchboxes that were used in percussion era guns were still shown in hardware catalogs in the 1870s and 80s.
This is on the early Hawken Mountain Rifle in Helena with the forged barrel and Tryon lock. Don’t know who engraved it.

The round bow English scroll guard can be flattened somewhat and used with DST. I just did this with a modern reproduction of an English scroll guard that I had in a drawer. Looks like it will work. I have to make a Hawken for a friend and have another barrel and may make a 1/2 stock flint version for me.

[KMac]

There are no proof marks on the top of the barrel just forward of the breech where they would usually be located, but I will take this gun apart to see if any markings are located on the underside of the barrel. I’ll also get a bore scope to check if it was rifled.

So, it seems this Tryon is either …

1.   Stocked by Tryon in Philadelphia with imported Birmingham parts to copy an English style that was in demand in the American west.

Notes: Tryon and Henry had a very close business relationship, and this gun may be a result of some Henry workmanship; iron mounted, barrel length, caliber, etc. per “Firearms of the American West 1803-1865”.  No proof marks – barrel not from Birmingham adds credence to an American gun. Pattern guns supplied to gun manufactures was common and could be copied. Why would Tryon buy an entire gun from Birmingham when he could buy the furniture and stock it less expensively in his own shop?

2.   It was purchased as an entire gun from Birmingham by Tryon for the western American market and did not include proof marks or they were filed off.

Notes: Very similar to a few guns from other Philadelphia gunmakers in the same period would lend one to believe they were English guns; identical features as BP, scroll guard stock profile, pointed tang, escutcheons, etc. Birmingham gunmakers copied a style that was in demand for the American western market and American gunmakers imported them, stamped their name on the lock, marked up the price and sold them for a profit.


I thought the gun really was interesting and possibly an early western trade gun when I first acquired it. “Tryon marking changed to Tryon and Son in 1835” would date this gun earlier and all seem to agree it was for the western market.  Thank you for all the expert comments as I have learned so much more about this gun even though more question arise which makes collecting interesting.

[Mike Brooks]

Good golly. Some of you guys should listen to the guys that have actually handled this type of gun and have decades of experience .

[JHeath]

Good golly. Some of you guys should listen to the guys that have actually handled this type of gun and have decades of experience .

Mike: put your cards on the table. If you have other examples that are just like this gun, show us. If you don't, then tell us it's an aberration and how you see it fitting in the evolution from Birmingham trade rifles to "English pattern scroll rifles" by JJ Henry, to plains rifles.

I am not an expert. But I pointed out the hybrid nature of the OP gun. I pointed out that Tryon imported B'ham guns. I brought in the WG Chance, pointed out its hybrid feature, noted that Chance was a B'Ham exporter to the American Fur Company. I brought in the two apparent Birmingham-import Maslins, noted their extreme inconsistency with American Maslin lock-marked rifles, and pointed out that Maslin operated in Phila. concurrently with Tryon.

I brought in three relevant guns in addition to the OP, and added whole lot of context. You want to be listened to, but haven't offered examples, context etc. Experts don't quibble about being asked to explain the facts and put them in context.

Moreover, I have seen experts be wildly wrong, build careers on bad assumptions, and ask the wrong questions. Medical experts, scientific experts, legal experts. I once stumbled on a string of court decisions that literally hundreds of published law professors overlooked. I thought I couldn't possibly have seen what they missed. So -- respecting the experts -- I emailed the most famous law prof in the US at Harvard. He quickly emailed back and said I had made an important observation that everybody else missed. So I throughly researched, documented, and published in a law journal. My work was later used for 2-1/2 pages of the winning brief in a landmark Sumpreme Court case. A few years after that a law prof flew from Illinois to Seattle to collect all the documents in my garage. And I don't even have a law degree.

I respect experts and elder statesmen in a field. But it is entirely respectful to question them and expect them to have credible answers that explain the known facts.

[jdm]

Here are some questions I have. Maybe they have been answered in a previous post and I missed them . If so I apologize. In the op Have the proof marks been established as  English?  If there, where are they located?  Top flat . side flat ' back by breech.  Tryon used his own fake proof marks on some trade guns.  It does  not look like Birmingham marks.
 What caliber is this gun ?
 The 39 inch barrel.  Has it been cut down to  that length or made that way or made that way originally ? 
 Has it been established that this is a Tryon?
Is the top of the barrel marked with the Tryon stamp ?

[Ky-Flinter]

In an effort to learn more about a gun I own, I recently did some research on English barrel proofing requirements and found that prior to 1813 proofing and marking was not required for barrels made in Birmingham.  Although some Birmingham barrel makers did mark their work, it is not known whether these marks indicate proofing, or are just the maker's mark.  Proofing of London made barrels was required beginning in 1637.

Ron