50 Cal w/ Green Mtn Barrel Versatility

[Huckleberry]

I bought a Lee REAL 250 grain Bullet Mold from Ed/WV about a month or so ago.  I have never fooled with casting and I have interest in working up a conical load for my 50 cal rifle so I cast half a dozen or so last night.  I went to the range this morning and got some good results! 😁 My load was 75 grains of 3f Scheutzen - .510 x 1/8” Nitro Card - thin linen patched REAL Bullet and then topped with same Nitro Card.  Loading and cleanup were easy.  4 shot group was 2 1/4” @ 50 yards - Plenty good for hunting and comparable to my roundball groups.

I have been thinking about buying a big bore rifle but given these results, not sure that it is worth it.  Anybody have experience with this bullet for elk hunting?

[Daryl]

Have you tried it without the linen patch. The patch you pictured is blown, so is not doing it's job
and my thoughts are it might be preventing the "slug" from obturating.
When I shot those bullets in my .45 (GM Bl) rifle, the accuracy was similar to yours but no patch was needed. I filled the grooves with
Lyman Black Powder Gold lubricant as well as my own mix 60% BW:40% Vaseline. Both worked well and no cleaning was needed.
After shooting 5 shots at 50yards with each lube, I loaded and shot my regular load of 10 ounce denim patch (.0225") and .445" round ball.
I did this test simply to duplicate my friend Neil's shooting in his .45 with GM barrel.

[Huckleberry]

Daryl,

Thanks for the reply - I have not tried this bullet with lube.  I was hoping that the patch would be an adequate substitute.  I was actually surprised that the patch held up as well as it did.  The main reasons that I used the patch was to prevent leading the barrel and to keep the bullet seated firmly.

Jason

[Marcruger]

A couple of thoughts. 

2-1/4" group at 50 yards offhand is good shooting.  For testing's sake, perhaps try benchresting to take you out of the equation and compare it to roundball accuracy with the same barrel. 

For leading, pure turpentine works under the lead and lifts it out of the rifling.  Try a nylon brush or a copper brush (turn 1/4 tun at the bottom so it doesn't get stuck). 

I am with Daryl.  I don't think that patch is helping you. 

Is that Green Mountain (GM) barrel a roundball twist?   If so, you may be able to gain a bit if accuracy by driving a projective (versus a roundball) faster.  That load of 75 grains in a GM seems to be a sweet spot in .50 in my experience for a roundball.  Not sure about a bullet. 

I think a heavier charge would also assist in obturating the lead.  If it is hollow base, is the card helping you any underneath the bullet? 

Just thinking out loud. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Huckleberry]

Marc,
Thank You for the response.  I will try to bench it at 100 yards.  The REAL bullet is solid.  The rings are sized smaller to larger diameter, with the larger at the top.  When loading, I only felt the top ring engage.

The patch is intact enough that I think it will prevent leading but can’t say for sure yet….
Not sure if the nitro cards are really helpful either.  The 75 grain load was an educated guess but this barrel seems very forgiving.  36” 1:70 twist.  My target roundball load is 50 grains of 3F with a heavy patch.  I have used 75 grains as a roundball hunting load effectively.  Thinking about trying 50 grains for deer season.

I am really itching for a big bore to use on larger than deer animals….however given these results, I am going to run with this conical load - At least for now 😁

[smylee grouch]

IMHO forget a 50 gr charge in a 1-70 twist for hunting. Use a 495 ball with at least a 20/1000 patch and 75+ gr of 2f. You want a big bore, buy or make another gun. 

[Marcruger]

"The 75 grain load was an educated guess but this barrel seems very forgiving."

I've developed loads for two GM .50 barrels, and 72 to 75 grains is an accuracy sweet spot, but I used 2f Goex.  Your load of 3f Scheutzen should be faster.  Yes, I have found roundball twist GMs to be very forgiving of what they will shoot well.  I guess that is why you see them on the firing line at lot at Friendship. 

 "36” 1:70 twist."

Yep.  Roundball twist. 

"My target roundball load is 50 grains of 3F with a heavy patch."

Interesting.  I wonder if your 3f Scheutzen with 50 grains is approaching my velocities with 2f Goex?  I think not, but I am glad you found the accuracy load in your barrel. 

 " I have used 75 grains as a roundball hunting load effectively."

How accurate is your 75 grain load versus your 50 grain load? 

 " Thinking about trying 50 grains for deer season."

That would make me (personally) kind of nervous.  I think of 50 grains as a starting load in .50.  If your 75 grain load works well and accurately, why reduce to 50 grains?  I'd like to have the extra in case you hit a bone or have a less than ideal angle. 

Just some thoughts.  God Bless,   Marc

[Marcruger]

BTW, for the same make of BP, I have found that (roughly) 10% less 3f matches a charge of 2f.  Like a 70 grain charge of 2f roughly equals a 63 grain charge of 3f. 

Also, I have found Swiss to be roughly 5% or so faster than Goex.  Like 1.5f Swiss seems to be close in velocity to the same charge of 2f Goex, depending on barrel length.  Scheutzen seems to be somewhere in between.   I sure notice the increase in recoil velocity with Swiss.  It steps back more smartly than the slow push of Goex. 

Just some thoughts on conversion between powders. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Huckleberry]

Smylee - Thank You for the response - I like the way you think! 😁

Marc - I really like the Scheutzen powder.  I have not tried Swiss.  I have only used 3F granulation.  The 50 grain load and 75 grain loads show similar accuracy in offhand shooting.  I have not done a bench test to prove though.  Thank you for your responses!

Marc and Smylee - Thanks for your insight on the 75 grain vs 50 grain roundball hunting loads - I will ponder on it some more…..

[Tim Ault]

Good shooting for offhand !   Try it without the patch , I shoot the 200 gr reals in my 45 GM barrel with 75 gr 3F  and a card under it as your doing and just finger lubed with a bit of tracks mink juice  and never had a speck of lead when I cleaned it . As you have noticed there’s not much resistance once it’s started into the barrel but I haven’t had one creep off the powder when hunting . I do check with the rod every so often but it’s always where I seat it .

[Huckleberry]

Tim,

Thanks for the response - I will give the mink grease a try 👍

[Daryl]

Good shooting for offhand !   Try it without the patch , I shoot the 200 gr reals in my 45 GM barrel with 75 gr 3F  and a card under it as your doing and just finger lubed with a bit of tracks mink juice  and never had a speck of lead when I cleaned it . As you have noticed there’s not much resistance once it’s started into the barrel but I haven’t had one creep off the powder when hunting . I do check with the rod every so often but it’s always where I seat it .

I found no movement either, Tim, when using the R.E.A.L. 200gr. or 220gr. bullets in my GM .45 bl.
I also used 75gr. 3F for my load in the flinter.

[Steeltrap]

FWIW, I shoot a 240gr. Hornady Pa Conical from my GM 1-70 (??) twist and have been for ten plus years. 100gr. GOEX FF. No button in-between. Makes no difference.

At 100 yards it groups a consistent 4" from a bench. 100 yards would be the longest shot at whitetail I'd take. One shot kills have been the history of this gun\round\load. 

For just a target load I'd likely back it down to 50gr and work it up to see what accuracy I'd get.

I just thought I'd post what happens from my GM barrel.  Oh, flintlock.

[Huckleberry]

Steeltrap - Thanks for the reply.  I have been fooling with the pa conical as well.  They seem to shoot as well offhand as the REAL and load easily in the GM barrel.  They are a bugger in my traditions barrel though on a reload.  I have not managed to connect with a deer using the pa conicals.  Missed two last season - trigger puller error 😣.  When I get time I want to try the pa conicals and REAL benched at 100 yards.

[coupe]

Huckelberry, the real is made to be shot patchless. R.E.A.L.=rifleing engaged at loading. The only thing that may help is a base wad like 1/8" felt to protect the lead bullet which might help in accuracy. I have tried the real, they did ok but there are many other more accurate bullets to use.
coupe

[Huckleberry]

Coupe - Thanks for the reply.  What works best for you in a roundball / slow twist barrel?

[Steeltrap]

The base diameter of the Hornady PA Conical is a tad smaller than the "nose" of the projectile. This makes the loading of the Conical pretty easy. And the base is hollow so that when the powder is ignited, the projectile expands immediately to engage the rifling.

The Pa Conical loads very easy in my GM (T\C drop in replacement barrel....best upgrade ever!!) barrel It's my belief that because the GM barrel has deep cut groves (compared to the very shallow cut groves of the original T\C barrel) that also helps with loading. That's another subject of the "why" but in any event, that's what my tiny grey matter has concluded.

The obturation of the back of the projectile prevents hot gas from "creeping" around the projectile and getting in-between the projectile and barrel....melting a bit of the lead and thus causing barrel leading.

Black Powder "explodes" upon ignition where as modern powders "burn" and don't provide the same initial "blast" that BP provides. (Black Powder is classified as an explosive while modern powders are classified as propellents)

In any event, that's my very amateur understanding of it.

[bob in the woods]

Just a bit of clarification, from my perspective, re the notion of black powder "exploding" in your barrel.  It doesn't !   Yes, the pressure is greatest at the breach when the powder is ignited, mainly because the ball/bullet is in a static position and the force required to get it moving is greater than the force required to keep it moving . The powder continues to burn as the projectile accelerates down the barrel.  If you load too much powder , it won't all burn and some will be ejected along with the projectile.  Black powder burns quickly if ignited "in the open" , but the burn rate is still has a lot to do with the granule size. The main reason it is classified as  an "explosive" is because of it's low ignition temperature. 
The substitute BP's overcome this classification by having higher ignition temps

[Steeltrap]

What is the difference between an explosive and a propellant?
Explosives and Detonators:

Propellants correspond to deflagration rather than detonation like explosives. The major difference between propellants and explosives is that propellants provide a much greater duration of pressure with a significantly lower loading rate in the borehole than explosives.

Well...that's what someone states. 

[smylee grouch]

I think Bob in the Woods is right and the writings of Bill Knight ( Mad Monk ) bear that out. The smokeless powder is  progressive burning where as the black is a flash burn. I do think it would need to be shot out of a very short barrel or ridiculously large charge  to have any unburned powder exit the muzzle. JMHO

[Daryl]

Exactly.

[Huckleberry]

Finally had a chance to shoot the 250 grain REAL at 100 yards.  Used the new Goex in 3f - 80.  This was shot from a bench.

[Steeltrap]

You are well within the kill zone for whitetail!!  Now.......focus and don't flinch!!!   

[Marcruger]

Not sure about versatility, but GM barrels will flat SHOOT.   Both roundball barrels.  Not fussy as to powder charge due partly to slow RB twist.  Seems to shoot a .50 ball into a tiny group at anywhere between 70 and 80 grains of 2f. 

This group was at 50 yards.  I think you have some more accuracy left to find in that barrel.  At 100 yards it should double the group size shown here. 

[Huckleberry]

Steeltrap - Getting better at making jerky 😁

Macruger - I think I am going to try 2f for the REAL at 100 yards - I think that I am getting “strung out” on the 3f with the 250 grain bullet.  Roundball is a different story.