Yet another locked thread?

[Mike Brooks]

Why is the thread on the 1750 english lock locked down?I would love to hear the logic behind this.

[rich pierce]

Self-locked. OP can lock their topic.

[Mike Brooks]

Ah, I see. Getting too hot in the kitchen.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Al Gore put it in his "lockbox."

[Loyer]

If it is the thread "rare English flintlock rifle", I suspect the OP didn't like the readers pointing out all the non-original parts and stock problems with his gun.   
Too bad because it was still a nice old gun.

[Molly]

Sort of the same reason I was @#$$%& for posting a comment of an 1864 Springfield....the forum is the "American Long Rifle".  English guns are not American Long Rifles.

Seems there have been a number of of topic threads of late.  OK by me but .....

[Feltwad]

If it is the thread "rare English flintlock rifle", I suspect the OP didn't like the readers pointing out all the non-original parts and stock problems with his gun.   
Too bad because it was still a nice old gun.

Not exactly it is the know all's only see the  long rifle and for English guns  99%  have not  any idea only what they find in books which most are far from the truth that was the reason
Feltwad

[JV Puleo]

Feltwad makes a good point. All historical artifacts exist in a context that includes many related items. To ignore this is to develop a very myopic view of the subject. I'd go so far as to say nearly blind. This is a problem I've seen many times with gun books...the authors often have no knowledge or interest in the context the artifacts were created in and sometimes draw almost idiotic conclusions from that. I, for one, come to this site for the discussion of the non-longrifles since this is where I find the most acute observations on the internet. I really don't have much interest in American rifles if only because far too many of them have been mucked with and any that I liked would be far beyond my means.

Actually, I should correct what I've written. I do have 8 or 10 NE rifles only two of which are still in flint. I like NE rifles but, again, I am very skeptical of many of the "attributions" we see. The fact is, they are nearly all very similar and, to me, if it isn't signed we can 't know who sold it.

[AZshot]

I come here to learn about and see American Long Rifles.  Pretty simple.   Any blunderbuss or snaphance led to the American Long Rifles, but aren't one. 

An occasional offshore built rifle is one thing.  But weekly/daily  posts about UK rifles and shotguns is not what I come here for, and they are pushing the few American rifles posts down.   I suppose if I were king I would make a section for "historical arms that influenced American Long Rifles", and let everything else be put in that section.

[Mike Brooks]

I find English and European guns a worthy study. With out understanding them you can't understand colonial American built guns. If you don't like looking at them just don't click on the subject, problem solved.

[AZshot]

I like early US Martial arms.  They influenced Long Rifles a lot more than English fowlers. 

[WESTbury]

I find English and European guns a worthy study. With out understanding them you can't understand colonial American built guns. If you don't like looking at them just don't click on the subject, problem solved.

I agree with Mike. Early English and Northern Continental Longarms are the foundation upon which the Colonial American Longarm Tradition was built.

[OLUT]

I should know better than enter into this "gentlemen's debate", but here's my perspective...   Like several others, I am keenly interested in what led to the American Longrifle  classic "American built" form . In my personal studies, without this history or insight, the study of the American Longrifle is incomplete. Within the scope of the Forum's Mission Statement (i.e., "and related arms of the period"), I sense that there is room for both the areas of American and also non-American firearms . But, to prevent obfuscation of the interests of some purists who prefer a narrow scope of this forum, a simple solution would be to add another topic area. For one approach, the "Antique Gun Collecting" could be split into American  made and a second topic area for non-American types.... if I offend anybody, my apologies for my personal bias

[Jim Kibler]

What I find interesting is the overall lack of interest and expertise in 18th and 17th century English guns in England today!  Many of those who know these guns best are in the states.  Also, from one perspective, you really don't know something as well as possible unless you've done the work yourself.  With this in mind it's interesting that you have to come to this country to have a top-notch English gun of this period made.

As an aside, there is nothing wrong with debate.  I try to make sure I have information available to back up statements I might make.  If others have information to counter this, that's really all good.  This is how understanding is progressed.  To just shut down when a difference of opinion is presented, isn't too helpful in this regard.

And finally, I think when you present an original in this forum, you should be willing to accept there might be differences of opinion. 

Jim

[Feltwad]

What I find interesting is the overall lack of interest and expertise in 18th and 17th century English guns in England today!  Many of those who know these guns best are in the states.  Also, from one perspective, you really don't know something as well as possible unless you've done the work yourself.  With this in mind it's interesting that you have to come to this country to have a top-notch English gun of this period made.

As an aside, there is nothing wrong with debate.  I try to make sure I have information available to back up statements I might make.  If others have information to counter this, that's really all good.  This is how understanding is progressed.  To just shut down when a difference of opinion is presented, isn't too helpful in this regard.

And finally, I think when you present an original in this forum, you should be willing to accept there might be differences of opinion. 

Jim

Your statement I am afraid  is far from the truth  , we do not need to come to the States to have  a top notch gun of the period  made  the answer to that is we have plenty of originals to chose from . Do not forget that the British gun maker no matter what the period are the best in the world
Feltwad

[Jim Kibler]

What I find interesting is the overall lack of interest and expertise in 18th and 17th century English guns in England today!  Many of those who know these guns best are in the states.  Also, from one perspective, you really don't know something as well as possible unless you've done the work yourself.  With this in mind it's interesting that you have to come to this country to have a top-notch English gun of this period made.

As an aside, there is nothing wrong with debate.  I try to make sure I have information available to back up statements I might make.  If others have information to counter this, that's really all good.  This is how understanding is progressed.  To just shut down when a difference of opinion is presented, isn't too helpful in this regard.

And finally, I think when you present an original in this forum, you should be willing to accept there might be differences of opinion. 

Jim

Your statement I am afraid  is far from the truth  , we do not need to come to the States to have  a top notch gun of the period  made  the answer to that is we have plenty of originals to chose from . Do not forget that the British gun maker no matter what the period are the best in the world
Feltwad

Please show me one, top of the line 17th or 18th century styled, but modern day built English gun made in England.  I can show you a good number of those built in the states, but have never seen one made in England that was worth a hoot.  All of this is my opinion of course.

I would be happy to show you examples of those which have been made here.  Mark Silver's work, Monte Mandarino's work, and others come to mind.  Heck I've even made a few I'm fairly proud of...

Jim

[Feltwad]

Jim there is a big difference between a original and a repro to a collectors no matter how good a persons work is  for me it has to be an original
Feltwad

[Jim Kibler]

Jim there is a big difference between a original and a repro to a collectors no matter how good a persons work is  for me it has to be an original
Feltwad

You are missing my point...  Whether you prefer originals is not pertinent.  Please read my previous post.  I was referring to the understanding and appreciation you can only get by making something of equal or very @!*% near equal to what was made in the past.  Not to mention the study and research necessary to pull it off.  And no, this doesn't mean careful study of pictures.  It means dissecting original work as study pieces.

This is just one aspect of gaining an understanding and appreciation of past work, though.  There are other ways of learning that compliment this, of course, but this is substantial.


So, to my original point...  I question the appreciation and expertise, in general, of those from England today regarding 17th and 18th century guns.  A few points regarding this:

Great originals sell for peanuts.  Many of these end up in the states.
Anyone who has approached this subject from a scholarly perspective is long dead.
Descriptions from auction houses are weak at best.
No first class modern work recreating this period is being done.

Yes, there are probably some who have authority and expertise, but I've not been too impressed from what I've seen in the last 20 years or so. 

But with all this said, debates should be based on individual bits of information and not generalities. 

Jim

[FlintFan]

The best gunbuilders in the Uk are not building muzzleloaders.  Simple as that.

[Feltwad]

The best gunbuilders in the Uk are not building muzzleloaders.  Simple as that.

Correct but there is no need  when you can purchase an original.
Feltwad

[Bob Roller]

The best gunbuilders in the Uk are not building muzzleloaders.  Simple as that.

Good answer.They are making modern hunting guns,rifles and shotguns.The American long rifle was a tool in the primitive new world
and some were made with elaborate carving both raised and incised and others were plain as a fence post and are literally lock.stock and barrel and every bit as effective as the fancy guns.My interest is/was in the locks on the English guns.Superb and very detailed and smooth.Hold the sear up with the trigger and cycle the lock and all you feel is that "oily"mainspring.The locks seen on so many American rifles in my opinion started at the bottom and went down.Utility grade,barely but they fired the gun.
Today the American long rifle as now made is made from much better parts based on better locks and barrels made with precision tools.                                   .Another BIG plus is the working areas of a shop has much better lighting,heating and in some,air conditioners
or at least a good fan to keep the air moving.The long rifles were a segment of the firearms used and the Northeast produced American
target rifles and hunting rifles that produce fine accuracy and are highly regarded today by shooters and collectors.Get a copy of Major Ned Roberts book titled "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle"read it.He disavowed any knowledge of the flintlock long rifle but gave us a good
picture of the caplock match and hunting guns of his time and he visited the shop of long rifle maker Hacker Martin and got a lot of info on primitive rifle making and Hacker was the epitome of that time and so was Wyatt Atkinson of Hildalgo,Kenticky  who he visited with E.M.Farris,one of the founders of the NMLRA in 1933.Martin and Atkinson were two men living in different parts of the country but did try
to keep this wonderful relic alive so we,today can continue on with them.
Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

The best gunbuilders in the Uk are not building muzzleloaders.  Simple as that.

Correct but there is no need  when you can purchase an original.
Feltwad

Your best English flint and percussion guns are mostly ending up in the States when they come up for sale. Even I have owned several that were in well known English collections. They aren't hard to buy out of England, never have been.  I have shot some of the most outstanding English guns that were ever built, one being a Griffin 11 bore SXS out of Keith Neal's collection. Marvelous gun, and quite handy on the skeet field.

[Molly]

"Mission Statement

The mission of AmericanLongrifles.org is to promote, preserve and support the traditional art and craft of building, collecting and using the American Longrifle. This would include accouterments and related arms of the period.

While the term American Longrifle may include a large and diverse group of firearms including those made for military and experimental reasons; the focus of the board is only those arms made primarily as sporting arms and utilizing a side lock ignition system.

Forum topics or discussions not in the spirit of the site's Mission Statement will be deleted or moved to an appropriate forum at the discretion of the moderators. We wish to keep forum discussions very close to the Mission Statement shown above.

American Longrifles is the more accurate term for the class of uniquely American firearms better known as Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifles.  While the focus of this site is the American long rifle in all its incarnations,  it is also a home for all those crafts persons preserving a bit of the past by building traditional muzzle loading sporting firearms and their accoutrements. The mission of AmericanLongrifles.com is to promote and support the art and craft of building historically accurate long rifles, related firearms, and accoutrements of the highest quality and artistic merit.   

Whether you are an apprentice or a master at your craft, AmericanLongrifles.com has something to offer.   The  Books & Videos, Gun Building, and Web Links,  pages of this site, offer the novice gun builder all the information and resources they need to get started building historically accurate long rifles.  The Bulletin Board offers advice, encouragement, and camaraderie to the novice and experienced builder alike.  It is our hope that each visitor gets as much from AmericanLongrifles.org as we  have gotten by providing the site."


All "old guns" are worthy of studying.  Maybe "related" includes even those ugly Afghan Jezail's.  But in the larger sense it strikes me that the umbrella topic is American

[AZshot]

Again, if this was a once in a while thing, or a separate "not ALR" section it would be fine.  But reading the European posts, I see little to no discussion on how all these English rifles and shotguns relate to American Long Rifles.  What I do see is posting to show interesting European rifles, to generate discussion, and promulgate their details and understanding....of European arms.  It is a stretch to say these are related to American Long Rifles.  America developed it's own distinctive long rifles that became very insular and unique to America.  We didn't continue to "inject" stylistic details from Europe after we got the schools established. 
Just this month:

[rich pierce]

Every attempt to narrow the focus here is met with strong opposition by those with varied interests, and some members will leave. If that’s the goal, or a reasonable cost (so long as it doesn’t affect you), don’t be shy to say so, that you’ve counted the cost and don’t care who goes away upset, and that you want MORE moderation. Or, folks could choose to ignore stuff they don’t find interesting. I’m not closing discussions on the topic, just offering a perspective that when it’s their interest, chances are very high that folks will find a justification for it belonging here, and when it’s not, for it to be removed. Human nature.

Recently (considering an old man’s lifetime) we were lobbied to include late, fine, American target rifles. There was brief interest, nobody felt run off, and it didn’t ruin anything.

Just the opinions of one moderator.