Author Topic: Jim Beckwourth rifle  (Read 5078 times)

Offline Herb

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Jim Beckwourth rifle
« on: June 28, 2023, 02:06:36 AM »


I am building a bench copy of this rifle for Jeff Hengesbaugh.  I photographed and carefully measured it at his place.  It was originally flintlock but was converted to caplock.  The barrel is 40 5/8" long, .56 caliber, 1 1/4" at breech tapering to 1 1/8" at the muzzle.  He wants it built in flint, and I need some advice on which lock to use.  The lock (and inlet) is 5.2" long.  I looked at Track's catalog and found about five flintlocks that would fit a 1 1/4 barrel.  I think a Queen Anne is a good choice, or a Tulle fusil de chasse.  Both are 5.6" long, and I could file the tit off the back to shorten them some.  The rifle has been rebuilt and modified from original, so an earlier lock could have been used.  I also have to modify a butt plate, make a trigger guard, rod pipes, nose cap, and entry pipe.  Got the barrel and tang inletted into the stock.  About ready to have it bandsawed out by a friend, but need to have a lock first.  By the way, Jeff's rifle was not stolen, a friend saw him and the rifle about a month ago.  I welcome some advice on the lock.  Thanks.









Herb

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2023, 04:03:43 AM »
HERB,welcome back to the lands of the living ;D ;D ;D ;D. The lock certainly looks like a converted flint lock and the drum and nipple
instead of a bolster.This MIGHT be the first Hawken that might have been a flint lock when new.What kind of mechanism does the lock have although it isn't a hard and fast rule about this one way or the other.Has this gun evet been REALLY evaluated and closely examined by anyone who really knows these guns?Looks Hawken to me but I am NO expert.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: June 28, 2023, 04:07:23 AM by Bob Roller »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2023, 04:15:50 AM »
Herb, there are no good choices in an off the shelf lock. The lock shape is like the L&R Manton, which is smaller. Your choices are to compromise or build from scratch or more modify a percussion lock.
Andover, Vermont

Offline wormey

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2023, 04:41:21 AM »
I am not certain, but I think Chris Hirsch has a flintlock that is close to this one.  Wormey

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2023, 04:51:15 AM »
This percussion lock is most similar in shape to the Beckworth rifle’s lock. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/783/1/LOCK-LR-150

If you’re going to use double set triggers be sure your lock has a fly.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2023, 05:11:28 AM »
Hammer isn't even close.
Dan

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2023, 05:36:59 AM »
Hammer isn't even close.
I think he wants a flintlock. I’m suggesting finding any lock that’s close and modifying it as needed. A percussion lock of the right size and shape could be converted to flint. Add a double throated cock, pan, frizzen, and frizzen spring.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Herb

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2023, 07:07:58 AM »
Thanks, all.  That L&R 150 is for a one-inch barrel.  My barrel is 1 1/4".  The Beckwourth lock is an odd ball.  The center of the hammer screw to the center of the drum is 2.17".  Present caplocks measure 1.5", and the big flintlocks measure 1.75" to the flash hole.  Bob, I don't remember who has looked at the Beckwourth rifle, but Jeff Hengesbaugh thinks it is a forerunner of the Hawken rifle.  He has drawn many similarities between the JB rifle and Hawkens.   I don't have the skill or time to modify a lock, except to shorten the rear a little.  I believe my best bet is one of the two I mentioned.

But there is still a problem.  The JB rifle was a flintlock, but it does not have a front lock bolt.  Jeff has a drawing of a lockplate with a  hook on the front that anchors it, I guess that is the JB lock.  I am unsure how this can be poked in and allow the lock into the inlet. 

Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2023, 07:50:53 AM »
I just looked a Track's web page, and It seems that the 1803 Harper's Ferry might be my best fit.
Herb

Offline Curmudgeon

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2023, 03:48:33 PM »
Herb,

I sent a personal message regarding the Harpers Ferry lock.

Kevin

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2023, 03:59:29 PM »
Herb,
 Maybe I’m missing something, but why not use a Chambers Late Ketland and grind or weld the lock plate as needed. I’ve not heard great things about the Harpers Ferry lock.
Good luck
Kevin

Offline jim alford

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2023, 05:34:01 PM »
I did NOT have a good experience with the Harper Ferry lock.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2023, 05:43:56 PM »
I did NOT have a good experience with the Harper Ferry lock.

Same with me! Plab o. Lots of work.

Dennis
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2023, 06:53:33 PM »
Interesting comments on that Harpers Ferry lock as I was thinking of using one on a rifle. But I would be interested in knowing just what issues were encountered.  :-\

Offline CooleyS

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2023, 08:40:55 PM »
Herb, great hearing from you and I'm happy to see you are in the process of another build...can't wait to see the finished rifle.

A thought and a comment...first, would the Chambers gunmakers flintlock work? It give you the freedom of making the lock plate look how you want and it is long enough for the lock mortise. The hammer is passable for 1830's built rifle. Just a thought...

As for using an 1803 Harper's Ferry lock, I would hesitate to use an arsenal built military lock on a rifle made by a civilian gunmaker. I know that Jacob worked at Harpers Ferry, but I'm not sure he would have walked off with their locks to use, but you never know I guess!

As for quality 1803 HF locks, I used a Rifle Shoppe Harper's Ferry lock for their 1800 prototype build. I had Mike Keller tune it a bit, but I've have had no issues with it at all since. The only time it has not gone off was when I had a bull elk in my sights at 40 yards and pulled the trigger...the only problem was I had failed to remove the leather hammer stall! Luckily the elk was patient enough to allow me a do over and the lock fired quickly the second time I pulled the trigger.

-Steve

Offline ScottH

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2023, 08:52:37 PM »
L&R #900
maybe??

Offline Herb

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2023, 09:45:12 PM »
Thanks, all.  I think appearance is more important to Jeff than function.  I doubt he'll ever shoot it.  I will to regulate the sights.  Chamber's Classic Ketland 1810-1820 is for a 1" barrel and has a square tail.  The gunmakers lock doesn't say what barrel size it is for, and that is more work than I want.  I did consider it.  The 1803 is available as an unmarked common rifle.  I would think builders back then  used that lock, kind of a military surplus or salvage from a military rifle.  I like the L&R 900, have used it twice.  It doesn't mention barrel size for the flintlock, but the matching caplock is for barrels up to 1 1/8".  I don't know what difference that would make on a 1 1/4 flintlock, but if it will work, that is my choice.  The plate is 5.0" long, compared to JB's 5.2", but the appearance is more important than the exact size.  Thanks for making me look again, ScottH.  I'd use the reinforced cock.  The outline is close to the JB lock.
Herb

Offline HighUintas

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2023, 07:06:57 AM »
Herb, I am thinking it would be pretty easy and quick for you to find a lock that looks the closest, and if the lock is meant for a small barrel than 1 1/8", you can easily solder a shim onto the bolster and file to match bolster contour in order to allow use for a larger barrel. You could make quick work of that

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2023, 02:44:27 PM »
Herb,
Does the tumbler in that lock have a half cock position? That will say for sure about the possibility of it being a flintlock.
Bob Roller
How thick is that bolster and can you cut an accurate profile of that plate and the exact location of the tumbler hole?
I can make that plate easily.I used 1/4x 1 and 1/4 cold finished 1018 and will drill a pilot hole for the tumbler.
I have a finished Carson plate but it isn't long enough.Once the plate is made then just about any mechanism can be installed.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 08:04:35 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2023, 03:39:45 PM »
Looking closely at the photos posted here, the only thing that would lead me to believe that this lock might have been flint originally is the chunk missing above the lock that might have been clearance for a flint cock stop.  But it could also just be a chunk missing.  Or, perhaps this entire lock is a replacement for a late flintlock that might have preceded it, and this replacement is a good fit?  Tough to tell trying to zoom in on the photos on a laptop.  I can see by the xray image that it looks like a 3-screw bridle and I can see a stirrup tumbler.  *IF* this lock is a complete replacement, it's possible that the current lockplate is a little larger than the original.  Real tough one here.  The hook at the nose of the plate to eliminate the front bolt would be pretty standard for either a late flint or percussion.

Most of the time, when the lock companies or resellers (i.e. track, mbs etc) are specifying barrel size, they are going by the interaction between the bolster, barrel and mainspring and whether or not a given bolster thickness with allow the particular mainspring to clear the barrel.  There are lots of alterations that can be done here.  1.25 breech in .56 cal still gives you a lot of meat there so if there are issues with the mainspring clearing, you can thin the spring, or file bevels onto it, or chisel out a bit of a barrel groove or all three.

I've used a couple of those Davis locks that were basically the HF lock without the markings, but I modified the heck out of them.  Never had a problem with one, though.  I'm generally not a Davis lock fan but did not have issues with them but to be honest I was replacing some parts as I was modifying.  I'm not sure if the 'common rifle' or unmarked version is still identical to the HF lock, as I see they sell common rifle locks now that don't look exactly the same to me.

Edit:  so I took at look at Track and they still show HF lock with engraving and without, but being the same lock.  However, the unmarked lock is backordered.  That may be in perpetuity *if* Davis is no longer making them in that form.  One point, since it largely uses Siler internals, (1) replacement parts are piece of cake, and (2) the Siler mainspring can easily accommodate bevels filed on the arms, particularly the upper arm in this case, which will buy you at least 1/8 of barrel size or more depending upon how aggressively you file the bevels.  It can be done without annealing or retempering the spring and it will have no effect on function.  If you can still get one of these, based upon what you want to do, I would go with this lock but expect to do some fairly simple modifying (no welding should be involved - all cut and file).
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 05:23:07 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2023, 05:27:38 PM »
This was the unmarked HF lock with a replaced cock and frizzen, and some filework on the plate, but not much else.  Actually I might have just reworked the frizzen, not sure but looking at the tail I thought it best to call it replaced.


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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2023, 05:38:45 PM »
I found this with more photos:

https://www.muzzleloadermagazine.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=14

The more I look at it, the more I think that this lock is a replacement lock at the time it was converted.  I do not think this current lock was ever a flintlock but of course could be wrong.  But I don't see it, especially viewing the "gut" phtoos.  However, the notch above the plate does indeed look like a deliberate cut for a flint cock stop.  If I am right, I'd guess the original flintlock was @ 5" or so long and plate was probably just a hair smaller than the lock in it now.  It may have had a 'tit' at the tail, or it may have been roundback as this lock shown.  If indeed this lock is a period replacement, the round tail and slightly larger size would cover any evidence of a small tail tit.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 07:01:48 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2023, 07:12:27 PM »
Now that I look at the Xray image again, there is clearly a notch for a front lock bolt under this barrel.  But looking at how tightly the rammer fits up against the underside of the barrel, how the heck would someone get a bolt through there?  Something is starting to look a little funky here.  Is it just me?  I am admittedly very cynical.  Could this barrel not be original to this stock?  Or maybe it was recycled when the gun was stocked?  I just don't see how a front lock bolt is getting through all this but yet there sure appears to be a groove there unless the xray itself is screwy.

And, if there was no front lock bolt, I also don't see any evidence that there was a hook at the nose because there is no screw head or stud inside the mortice for the catch.  Unless it was hogged out, which then also points to a complete lock replacement.  This is getting weirder and weirder.
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Offline HighUintas

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2023, 09:12:45 PM »
I'm not seeing a halfcock notch in the tumbler in the xray

Offline JTR

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Re: Jim Beckwourth rifle
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2023, 10:55:58 PM »
I'm not seeing a halfcock notch in the tumbler in the xray

I agree. From that x-ray, it looks like an original percussion lock. If that rifle was originally a flinter, it wasn't with this lock.
Just my opinion, of course.... ;-)

Also, with no front lock bolt, I might start wondering about the originality of the flint cock notch in the wood and its burn pattern,,,,
John
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 11:13:36 PM by JTR »
John Robbins