Author Topic: Sand casting triggerguard  (Read 2316 times)

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Sand casting triggerguard
« on: November 11, 2023, 05:15:06 AM »
I been working on this project for sometime now.

Taking original JP Beck hardware and having it digitally scanned to .001mm I then had it 3D printed to .01mm tolerances.




 Those 3D models were scaled to account for brass shrinkage and clean up.
I made the cope and drag from some oak.


I plan to use finer sand than 130 mesh next time and pack it a little tighter.

See the video below:

https://youtu.be/PnwWI-PIrF4?feature=shared


Please share any advice, or tips. Hopefully try some butt plates next. Want my Next build to be all me except for the lock and barrel. Through maybe one day those two ?🤣




« Last Edit: November 11, 2023, 07:19:09 AM by Jdbeck »

Offline Jamie Hurley

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2023, 06:36:20 AM »
I've got nothing to add but admiration.

I'm saving my pennies to buy a rifle from you. I'd just love to own a Beck.

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2023, 06:39:37 AM »
I've got nothing to add but admiration.

I'm saving my pennies to buy a rifle from you. I'd just love to own a Beck.

While I appreciate the motivational feedback, there are far better builders on here who can do a phenomenal Contemporary Beck, I would suggest Tom Caster. But I do enjoy the living history experience, doing this seems to remove the stress of life.

But with each build I certainly am getting better!

Online ed lundquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 398
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2023, 07:16:15 AM »
Ambitious and well done!

Offline AMartin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2023, 12:31:03 PM »
I would be interested in buying a set if you are selling.. just so I have a Beck rifle ready to start..
Please let me know.. thanks.
Allen

Offline Steeltrap

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2023, 04:27:57 PM »
I know, I know that I’m being a “Dad” here….but where is your eye protection?  And tennis shoes?

My only experience with dealing with hot metals occurred when I was about 17. We were casting lead RB. I had on boots, but I laced them “short” and the boot tongue flopped out a little. One RB fell from the mold and dropped into my boot. Took what felt like an eternity to unlace the boot and pull my foot out.

Needless to say it took a very long time for that hole at the top of my instep to heal.

I apologize for being a Dad here….but you can never be to careful!!

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2023, 04:36:06 PM »
I would be interested in buying a set if you are selling.. just so I have a Beck rifle ready to start..
Please let me know.. thanks.
Allen

If I get some more clean examples, I’ll get them to you.

I have to figure out the buttplate casting next (5 inches high, 2 inches wide) . I also did scans of the an early side plate “5 inches” and a later side plate, the 3 inch trigger plate, early beck patchbox, and the whale tail, the patch box latch catch, forged some triggers, and duplicated the original spring. These parts were water cut, with a few handmade ones also, and the trigger is forged.

I’m working on a copy, and was unhappy with all the available options on the market. So spent some time with a lot of originals to get the information necessary. The
Patchbox is 0.063 thick, which gives the door the nice authentic weight, also with this thickness, you can properly file Becks unique hinge. All it requires is a annealing to bend the hinge, arch the door, and from the box to the gun. It’s all a working progress.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2023, 05:06:49 PM by Jdbeck »

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2023, 04:43:14 PM »
I know, I know that I’m being a “Dad” here….but where is your eye protection?  And tennis shoes?

My only experience with dealing with hot metals occurred when I was about 17. We were casting lead RB. I had on boots, but I laced them “short” and the boot tongue flopped out a little. One RB fell from the mold and dropped into my boot. Took what felt like an eternity to unlace the boot and pull my foot out.

Needless to say it took a very long time for that hole at the top of my instep to heal.

I apologize for being a Dad here….but you can never be to careful!!

I was waiting for this comment🤣. You lucky I had gloves and apron on. I’ll go eat some crayons now🤣🤣🤣🤣. If you know my background you would know this is nothing—danger is my profession.

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3643
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2023, 04:52:36 PM »
JD, that is a pretty impressive endeavor on your part, especially since you only entered this realm a couple years ago! I'm glad I  could help you along the way...now I'm learning from you.

What shrinkage rate did you use?

Thanks for the plug!
Tom C.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13098
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2023, 05:04:00 PM »
I know, I know that I’m being a “Dad” here….but where is your eye protection?  And tennis shoes?

My only experience with dealing with hot metals occurred when I was about 17. We were casting lead RB. I had on boots, but I laced them “short” and the boot tongue flopped out a little. One RB fell from the mold and dropped into my boot. Took what felt like an eternity to unlace the boot and pull my foot out.

Needless to say it took a very long time for that hole at the top of my instep to heal.

I apologize for being a Dad here….but you can never be to careful!!
He's known as JD "DANGER" Beck. ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2023, 05:05:05 PM »
To
JD, that is a pretty impressive endeavor on your part, especially since you only entered this realm a couple years ago! I'm glad I  could help you along the way...now I'm learning from you.

What shrinkage rate did you use?

Thanks for the plug!

I’m sorry for bombarding you with questions all the time!! 🤣😝
So we printed numerous copies of the trigger guard, and butplate.

The percentages are different for the various axis’s, scaled thicker on the thinnest axis. This one I did was 5% on length, 5% on width, and 8% on thickness. It looks perfect, but I have to clean it up and see where we are. I plan to cast about 5, clean them all up. Then I’ll pull Measurements and if needed will reprint the plastic. Still working on the process and development. Once I get sizing down and consistency, I plan to move to 190 mesh sand to capture better details.

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2175
  • Oklahoma
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2023, 05:11:53 PM »
I know, I know that I’m being a “Dad” here….but where is your eye protection?  And tennis shoes?

My only experience with dealing with hot metals occurred when I was about 17. We were casting lead RB. I had on boots, but I laced them “short” and the boot tongue flopped out a little. One RB fell from the mold and dropped into my boot. Took what felt like an eternity to unlace the boot and pull my foot out.

Needless to say it took a very long time for that hole at the top of my instep to heal.

I apologize for being a Dad here….but you can never be to careful!!
It appears that the picture is him posing with the finished product and not during the actual pouring part.
Psalms 144

Offline Randall Steffy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2023, 06:11:58 PM »
In response to your shrinkage allowance, Jdbeck...I work daily with patterns for sandcast brass and the industry rule is to grow the master 3/16" per foot to compensate for normal brass shrinkage. Your 5% amounts to .600 or almost 5/8" per foot. I will be interested to hear if that actually holds out for you. 1.5% should be closer to correct and that applies to all dimensions. Excessively heavy sections may shrink more than 1.5% but then you may find casting defects in that section. Heavy sections require supportive risering off the part or a cooler pour temperature.

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4185
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2023, 07:04:14 PM »
Way to go there, John!
Maybe one day we will have JD building JP rifles!
John
John Robbins

Offline P.W.Berkuta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2023, 07:43:44 PM »
Nicely done - sir. My only casting experience was in high school with aluminum. Casting brass is not something I would take on. Now a days lead ball and bullets are my limits ;D.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4265
    • Personal Website
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2023, 08:05:03 PM »
That's some nice work!  We've done some similar things with investment casting in the past.  Did you scale anything up a touch to account for shrinkage?  Also, we've found it helpful to "wrap" the entire object with a touch of extra stock to allow for filing and polishing. 

Again, really nice and I'd be up for a set.  Just let me know.

Thanks,
Jim

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4008
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2023, 08:44:23 PM »
When I was running my own castings and talking to a lot of old dudes, I constantly was being told that much of the colonial green sand casting was being done with a finer "facing sand" (a term that came up a lot) to yield a finer product, and some of this might have been based in reality; while you can find some castings with very coarse sand texture on the non-exposed portions, you can also find castings which do not look like hardly any cleanup was needed.  I never really found any solid documentary evidence one way or the other but fairly quickly went over to petrobond (which is what it looks like you're using) since my forge shed was unheated and the green sand would freeze up solid every winter.  I never knew petrobond to come in different levels of refinement but that would have been a great benefit to know at the time!!!!

Looks like really nice work - congratulations.  Running your own patterns really frees you up!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2023, 09:23:46 PM »
That's some nice work!  We've done some similar things with investment casting in the past.  Did you scale anything up a touch to account for shrinkage?  Also, we've found it helpful to "wrap" the entire object with a touch of extra stock to allow for filing and polishing. 

Again, really nice and I'd be up for a set.  Just let me know.

Thanks,
Jim

I had the 3D printed model scaled up to account for brass shrinking and filing. The rough casting is spot on, if I need to reprint the 3D mold larger I will. I thought about trying to do investment casting also. We’ll see.

JTR I’ve built a few guns to date from kits to Blank builds🤣 in that process I found the hardware lacking— which is what got me making all the hardware. The buttplate and the trigger guard are the last two things I needed (I make everything els). Especially with the CNC Beck lock being made by Chris!



Eric I been having a few failures so  I’m experimenting with the gates, runner, risers, and vents for now. Until I get more consistent yields.
After than I’ll work on the sand grain size and size of the pattern. Yeah the sand has 190 that can pick up fingerprints they say… so we’ll see, I may use that as a facing sand once I get more experience under my belt. Definitely a lot to learn.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2023, 09:38:45 PM by Jdbeck »

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3643
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2023, 12:38:48 AM »
JD, Put some weight on top of the mold box before pouring to keep the molten metal from lifting the cope. It may not be an issue with one small part, but if you are seeing fins along the parting line it is from lifting.
 I recall seeing the iron casters sprinkle a fine talc or chalk on the pattern before closing, either to create a smoother surface or to aid in separation.

I worked for Roberts Sinto Corp. for 22 years designing automated foundry systems and machinery. I got to go to foundries all over the country and help with installation and getting it to run production. Did a bulk of our work for GM, Ford, John Deere, Caterpillar and many small non-ferrous foundries.
But that ended 20 years ago and my memory is getting fuzzy on the details.
Tom C.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4008
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2023, 12:53:37 AM »
Tom you're right, the talc is used to allow the two halves of the flask to separate easily as well as to prevent typically the cope side from sticking to the pattern when it is removed after the flask is rammed.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2023, 01:36:47 AM »
Yeah I am using separation powder. There are compressing latches on the side of the cope and drag to prevent lifting. Which seem to work pretty well, I added those recently.




Offline sbowman

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2023, 02:06:04 AM »

JD, neat stuff you're doing,  I originally thought your shrinkage allowance sounded like a lot but if you say it's spot on then it's spot on. What's the total length of the triggerguard?

Steve

Offline Jdbeck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2023, 02:48:31 AM »

JD, neat stuff you're doing,  I originally thought your shrinkage allowance sounded like a lot but if you say it's spot on then it's spot on. What's the total length of the triggerguard?

Steve

It would be a lot if I didn’t have to file it to clean it up.

Offline sbowman

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2023, 03:23:25 AM »

JD, neat stuff you're doing,  I originally thought your shrinkage allowance sounded like a lot but if you say it's spot on then it's spot on. What's the total length of the triggerguard?

Steve

It would be a lot if I didn’t have to file it to clean it up.

Yea there's always that with sandcastings,  so whats the total finished/cleaned up length? I have a "Beck" triggerguard here I bought years ago and have always wondered how close it is to an original in length. profile is pretty spot on.

Steve
« Last Edit: November 12, 2023, 03:28:26 AM by sbowman »

Offline Steeltrap

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: Sand casting triggerguard
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2023, 06:18:29 PM »
I was waiting for this comment🤣. You lucky I had gloves and apron on. I’ll go eat some crayons now🤣🤣🤣🤣. If you know my background you would know this is nothing—danger is my profession.

As long as they are Crayola your safe!!


It appears that the picture is him posing with the finished product and not during the actual pouring part.

You didn't watch the video: