Author Topic: Acorn vs pineapple?  (Read 1228 times)

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Acorn vs pineapple?
« on: April 02, 2024, 09:37:38 PM »
Which is older, generally, an acorn or pineapple finial on a trigger guard? 
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2024, 10:26:11 PM »
The acorn is older.
Mike

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2024, 11:59:54 PM »
Acorn is older and was replaced in the UK fairly rapidly by the pineapple finial starting around the mid-1780s, but you'll still find acorn finials on guns by some makers later on too.
I am the Lead Historian and a Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
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Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2024, 01:29:38 AM »
So what time period did the acorn finial first show up? Curious because I致e been told it was a late 18th century feature.

Online smart dog

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2024, 03:02:43 AM »
Hi,
The acorn shows up in the 1770s.  It is replaced by the pineapple during the late 1780s but persists on cheaper trade and hardware store guns.

dave
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2024, 05:05:11 AM »
Thanks for the education!
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2024, 04:42:05 PM »
Hi,
The acorn shows up in the 1770s.  It is replaced by the pineapple during the late 1780s but persists on cheaper trade and hardware store guns.

dave

Thanks Dave

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2024, 05:54:34 PM »
Not intentionally trying to hijack this topic but if the acorn is older would that " flaming pot" on an Turvey style trigger guard be older yet?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2024, 06:28:53 PM »
Acorn-1765 is the earliest.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2024, 06:30:26 PM »
I might add, there isn't a real good reproduction available. The rifle shoppe sells one....but it's the rifle shoppe.....
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2024, 11:25:54 PM »
You will find that there were many different trigger guard  finials used from the late 1690,s too 1770s  such has the  acanthus, shell. and Husk. The acorn is associated to the late 1760s which was popular up till the 1810-20 The pineapple became popular mostly for sporting sh0tguns and rifles  in the 1786 up till the end of the percussion era different finials  over lapped each other in  popular periods .
Feltwad

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2024, 02:35:06 AM »
I might add, there isn't a real good reproduction available. The rifle shoppe sells one....but it's the rifle shoppe.....
Mike, if you have a series number for it, I値l see if they have any next time I知 down there.
Psalms 144

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2024, 08:00:24 PM »
I might add, there isn't a real good reproduction available. The rifle shoppe sells one....but it's the rifle shoppe.....
Mike, if you have a series number for it, I値l see if they have any next time I知 down there.
Beats me, I just sold my catalogs. Robert Wolfe sent me the casting to be engraved, that's the only reason I knew it existed. Contact him, he can probably tell you what you need to know.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2024, 12:33:18 AM »
The one Mike is talking about is Rifle Shoppe 613TG. They list several acorn finial trigger guards with different numbers but at least several appear to be the same from the pics?
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2024, 12:43:15 AM »
Here is the photo from the catalog.



Mike

Offline Von Hayek

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2024, 01:57:54 AM »
As far as dating, I'm assuming that architectural fashion walks hand in hand with other art forms. The Maryland State House, which was constructed in the 1770s and is the oldest state house in the country that has been continually used for legislative purposes, has a very large acorn atop its dome.




Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2024, 06:35:19 PM »
The one Mike is talking about is Rifle Shoppe 613TG. They list several acorn finial trigger guards with different numbers but at least several appear to be the same from the pics?
All right. I値l look into their in stock status next time I head down that way.
Psalms 144

Offline RAT

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2024, 08:54:56 PM »
It is believed by some (including myself) that the pineapple motif came about to honor the voyages that Captain James Cook made in the late 18th century.

First voyage 1768-1771
Second voyage 1772-1775
Third voyage 1776-1779

Cook was killed by the Hawaiians in 1779.

We start to see the pineapple finial on trigger guards around 1800 or a bit before.
Bob

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2024, 03:29:29 PM »






A very good illustration of why no one should use catalogs like this as a reference...practically everything in the description is wrong.

No Ketland gun predates approximately 1759/60 and examples that may fit in that time frame are extremely rare.
William K went into business under his own name in 1801...no "WK" marked gun predates that.
The skeleton side plate shown was in use well past 1800...it was an earlier sty\le that continued on for export guns long after it was "old fashioned" at home.

I won't go on boring the readers but I've seen the Rifle Shoppe catalog cited as a reference  many times. It is isn't...

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2024, 04:50:34 PM »
I use them for the photos. It is a very good catalog of full sized images, which is invaluable as a reference.
Mike

Offline lexington1

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2024, 02:37:34 AM »
I need to make a timeline chart. Pineapple, potted plant, acorn. I know approx., but I still can get the date ranges mixed up.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2024, 05:01:11 AM »
It is a very nebulous dating tool...probably applicable to only the best quality English guns aside from saying the acorn is older and the pineapple later. About 99% of the guns we see on this side of the Atlantic were made for export and little attention was paid to the latest fashions. Export guns frequently used decorative motifs that were somewhat out of current fashion. You need a great deal more to go on than a trigger guard finial to arrive at anything like a reasonable date.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2024, 11:08:07 AM »
It is a very nebulous dating tool...probably applicable to only the best quality English guns aside from saying the acorn is older and the pineapple later. About 99% of the guns we see on this side of the Atlantic were made for export and little attention was paid to the latest fashions. Export guns frequently used decorative motifs that were somewhat out of current fashion. You need a great deal more to go on than a trigger guard finial to arrive at anything like a reasonable date.

I agree different designs did not change overnight  the acorn  finial was still used in 1800- -1820  especially on flintlocks.
Feltwad

Offline RAT

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2024, 10:38:57 PM »
Older styles can certainly show up on later guns. True... but going by the policy of not dating something earlier than it's latest feature, I think we can safely say that if it has a pineapple finial it doesn't date BEFORE approx the 1790's. So it goes both ways.
Bob

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Acorn vs pineapple?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2024, 05:12:23 PM »
I would say mid-1780s rather than 1790s for the pineapple, but yes, that premise generally works.
I am the Lead Historian and a Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*