Are we loosing our builders to Kit rifles

[Jim Kibler]

No custom building for me anytime soon.  There's no way with business demands.  Maybe someday...  it's also difficult to step back and use less efficient methods.

I still have the urge to make some super high end guns one day and these will probably be a combination of hand work and machining.

[JH Ehlers]

I hope that we are not going to lose builders to kits. But we never know what will happen in say 25 years. If people who buy guns/art, because that is what Jim Kibler was making before he started making kits, works of art, got payed what some artists get payed he would not even considered starting a kit business. Google Damien Hirst, just an artist that comes to mind. What would you rather have, a cow in formaldehyde or a beautiful gun. Apparently a cow in formaldehyde is more desirable.
More people need to get exposed to this and it seems Jim's kits has done this and it's a good thing. What I am trying to say is that custom gun makers will decline when they not making enough money or when demand declines. Just some tumbleweeds blowing around the inside of my empty scull.

[oldtravler61]

   My thoughts are Jim's kits are basically a custom gun in many ways.
The hard work of shaping and in letting are 99% done. So a custom builder can take it an run with it. That is as long as the customer likes any of the styles that Jim offers. The biggest or maybe not issue is the lop. Inlays, carving, engraving  etc can be accomplished to the customers wants and needs.
  I've seen some pretty impressive guns built with Jim's kits. JMHO

[Steeltrap]

In the mid-1970's, you could buy a T\C kit rifle for about $200. That's 1975 money. Adjusting for inflation, the 1975 dollar is now $5.90. So, take 200 x $5.90= $1,180. Close to a Kibler kit.

But the quality of the Kibler kit today vs the quality of a '75 T\C is night and day. The fit\finish of the Kibler, along with the lock quality and barrel rifling is superior to the old T\C models.

Both will shoot. Both will take big game. One is a "looks close" to what once was, and the other is a "that's what was used back in the day".

Today you can buy a 1970's T\C for about $400. In 50 years I wonder if you could buy a Kibler for $1,300? I'm thinking that would be tough.....but I won't be around to verify that!!

[Bob Gerard]

No custom building for me anytime soon.  There's no way with business demands.  Maybe someday...  it's also difficult to step back and use less efficient methods.

I still have the urge to make some super high end guns one day and these will probably be a combination of hand work and machining.

I can understand your decision 100%. It’s a shame we couldn’t clone you and let the other Jim just do his custom rifles.

[JBulitz]

As a young builder, I'm pressed to chime in.  The publicity surrounding today's kits has to offer has gotten the attention of a very important demographic in which there's a general attention deficit- I started with a cheap commercial kit and it immediately whetted an appetite to build from blanks that I've been feeding ever since.  There are clear economic challenges that would-be "full time" custom builders face now, and I concur with what Dave mentioned earlier about the availability of quality components.  But, I think there will always be folks out there for whom the process and study of building is as valuable as the product. Like most, I have a demanding life outside of my shop- but am still driven to make time for my tedious hobby and do hope it can be more than that someday.  As long as there is (encouraging) community and mentorship surrounding the craft, I'm confident there will always be a few growing builders like myself quietly looking on.

[mossyhorn]

I started with a CVA kit back in the seventies and harvested many squirrels with that rifle. Then progressed to a Thompson center 50 cal. and took deer with that rifle. Then I enrolled in Jims kit building class at western Ky his first class in or around 2016 and became very fond of flintlocks. I've since purchased a SMR from and expertly detailed by Jim Palmer and latter finished a Woods runner. I moved to a custom built East Tenn. rifle from a custom builder His number 777 build and will probably progress further. Jims Kibler kits restarted my fire for this hobby!

[eddietheteddie]

Like other new builders that chimed in, I got started on a kit just to see if I really wanted to invest the tremendous amount of time and money a lifetime of building from blanks entails.  It helped me make a nice end product and learn some less painful lessons, and it encouraged me to build from a blank which I'm now just finishing.  If it weren't for that kit and the time I spent learning from books/forums/videos, and seminars at Kempton, I'd never had made that first step.

I think for a lot of new folks the cost of building is a major impediment since they could buy a very nice center-fire rifle and scope for the same cost as a box of parts in a flintlock kit.  This isn't a cheap hobby to get into for someone young with kids, mortgages, etc. 

If someone doesn't have spare money, time, and exposure to others building from blanks, the chance of them doing that is pretty low.  If we want to encourage new folks to build, we need to provide opportunities for folks to discover and learn about building flintlocks. 

[tunadawg]

I can say the Kibler kit got me started. Next was a pre-carve from Cabin Creek. Now I have a blank ready to go for my next adventure.

[BElswick]

Well, I got started last year using a Jim Chambers “Issac Haines” kit. A fair amount of inletting and finish work had to be done but it got me hooked. I built it to a shoo table state during a week long rifle building class and finished the rest at home. I have a rifle blank sitting in my shop now waiting to start my next project. FYI, I finished my rifle today. I started on it back in July. I love it.

[rich pierce]

Good job, Billy!

[Bill in Md]

 Years ago I did a few "kits" which were as I remember, Caywoods, and Cabin Creeks. Both taxed the beginner on basic use of hand tools. These "kits" were not guns in the white by any means. They required final lock mortise work, triggers, and guards, and pinning. Touch hole liners had to be drilled and tapped, and the stocks were roughed out and required alot of work to reach final proportions.The barrels had to be tennoned and pinned and required much draw filing....You could call these semi custom I guess.

This of course was before CNC machining. If I remember Brads kits used a collection of parts from different suppliers. The barrels were Colerain's, the locks were from Chambers, the stocks were from local Pennsylvania boys who cut to his specs. Brad did hand tune the locks, which for a beginner is good, but I believe every rifleman should be able to tune a lock and set trigger weight.

Someone mentioned the disappearing suppliers of parts and I think that hit the nail on the head. Any gun I build these days will have a Bobby Hoyt barrel. His barrels are truly custom and built one at a time which I dig. Problem is, one day he will hang it up and I don't see anyone filling that void. Sure you can go CNC but such things have no interest to me. Stan Hollenbough no longer makes locks. His shop was less than an hour from me.

I have been building self backed long bows as long if not longer than long rifles. I started about 35 years ago. I would drive out of state to seek out fine osage. The whole process of selecting trees, felling them, staving them out and curing them was a step I relished and the beginning of a process that turned standing trees into works of art that had to function under the great stress of tension and compression.

I popped in on one of these "archery" sites not long ago to see many throwing plaudits at these Asian made "bows" that can be had for less than a C note. I guess I ain't in Kansas anymore. There is time and a season for everything, but I remember the "old days". I am only 63 but I do feel like Rip Van Winkle, asking myself how did we get here. There are no power tools in my shop. I use no magnification as most of my serious work is done on an outside bench to capture the benefits of the Sun. True I am a hobbyist. I spent 33 as an Electrical Contractor working in the mid-Atlantic, so I know all to well about technology. They very last thing I want is to introduce that stuff into my art.

I am not against those who do, Lord Knows. I write this to the OP. The answer is NO!!!....So long as I can get my hands on hand made parts, I will continue to build!......Hope everyone is keeping warm!

[Old Time Hunter]

Some years ago when Jim Kibler was introducing his kits and everybody on here was frothing at the mouth to get one, the point was made that it would effect the market for other suppliers and builders! Now here we are! There are only so many people that , buy muzzle loaders every year period! Including custom builds and kits . When people started buying his kits they , did`nt buy the others , this is not hard to figure out! The builders that were supporting the small suppliers , quit buying from them. As stated , many of them were barely making money to start! While "things change" , maybe all of you that were applauding Jim with vigor , can line up for your  kit guns when all the suppliers and builders are gone!!!  This sport is a joke compared to it`s former self. This site should be renamed the Kibler kit builder`s club! You ALL got what you rooted for ! Now enjoy it!!!

[Steeltrap]

That's called obtaining market share. There is a fix market for mouse traps. If you build a better one, you will begin to glean a bigger share of the market.

Called Capitalism.  And it's working out so far.

[PEARL DRUMS]

And Ford put horse breeders out of business. Some people cant see past there own nose.

[AZshot]

The result of the Industrial Revolution was automated manufacturing.  This reduced the need for guilds to weave wool in the UK, the need for a village blacksmith to make you a new hoe or hammer, the need for a farmer to harvest every crop by hand, on and on.  The invention of pneumatic tools made hard rock mining easier than the hammer jack method, painting a house with a paint sprayer easier than a brush, on...and on. 

Progress is hard on the craftsmen, guilds, trades, and workers.  The only reason many of us are here is because we started making TC or CVA kits in the 70s, and wanted something more authentic.  That doesn't mean every 25 or 35 year old can commission a master gunsmith to make them a $5,000 rifle.  They don't buy Rigby's or other bespoke hand made rifles either.  Val Forget and Dixie gun works went to Italy to get cheap BP guns for poor Americans 45 years ago.  It's just the way it is. 

The "big picture" of the better Kibler kits is you get a lot more people shooting black powder than 15 years ago.  That offers trickle down business for flints, horns, bags, and all that buckskinner stuff that was Dead in the Water 15 years ago.  I know, I saw how big buckskinning was before the turn of the Century.  And I see how many vendors are closing or not selling when they die.  Regular reloading supplies too, like Reddington - gone.  Or assessories, like Redfield.  That's just two of the "R"s....

If the only way to get a good flintlock long rifle was to pay big bucks, and have long waits, BP would stop being even made. 

[Hawg]

The Kibler kits lets those of us without the tools or the skills to use them have a decent rifle that otherwise we wouldn't be able to have. I can't afford to pay several thousand dollars for a rifle and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others in the same boat. I had to scrimp and save for four months to be able to buy my Kibler. I got the woodsrunner because it was the easiest to build. If it had been a colonial or SMR it would still be in the box gathering dust because I don't even have the skills to build one of those. The only reasons I have my scratch built Hawken is the man that built it gave me a good deal because he had never built a rifle from blueprints and couldn't promise how it would turn out plus he let me trade some stuff on it. He did a pretty good job on it including making the ironware. As long as there are traditional bp shooters there's going to be people with the money to pay somebody to build rifles. 

[Robby]

No.
Robby

[Scota4570]

One aspect of Kiblers kits is that they can be modified.  IN the RC Model hobby it is called kit bashing. 

I wonder if it would be possible for Kibler to offer a less finished stock.  Maybe even a square stock with just the barrel and ramrod hole done.  This would allow the customer to make something different out of it.  Given that Jim's parts are top notch and his stocks are excellent, I'd definitely try one.  I even have a project in mind. 

[Steeltrap]

I have a physical disability (ask the Mrs and she may tell you I have a mental one in addition). It takes me hundreds more hours to complete a build from scratch than an "ordinary" person.

I don't have a Kibler.....yet. The time savings in one of his kits is worth it all by itself. Then the fact that you have a rifle with 100% quality components and you can put it together without needing to patch a mistake here or there is simply value.

[Bill in Md]

And Ford put horse breeders out of business. Some people cant see past there own nose.

Nay.... back in 1980's I owned 3 Ford Broncos, and a couple F250's (everyone had a rear main oil seal leak)  and my wife and I still bred horses.....I still choose to use scythes and grass whips to cut my 3/4 acre bottom meadow. Not because I can't afford a lawn mower, but because it makes me happy and keeps my arms strong.... Some people love to paint with broad brushes.....b

[Steeltrap]

And Ford put horse breeders out of business. Some people cant see past there own nose.

Nay.... back in 1980's I owned 3 Ford Broncos, and a couple F250's (everyone had a rear main oil seal leak)  and my wife and I still bred horses.....I still choose to use scythes and grass whips to cut my 3/4 acre bottom meadow. Not because I can't afford a lawn mower, but because it makes me happy and keeps my arms strong.... Some people love to paint with broad brushes.....b

"NAY"!!....I see......I see what you did there.   

[Joey R]

Horses have rear main leaks too!😂

[Bill in Md]

You guys make me smile!!!!!...........I enjoy this page more and more.....Good debate, tempered with respect...........Shalom gentlemen!!!!

[PEARL DRUMS]

Well, thanks to stinkin' Jim Kibler I have now spent another $600 on various chisels, a lock and a plank of sugar maple. That's after I spent $1300 on one of his kits a year ago