Are we loosing our builders to Kit rifles

[Old Time Hunter]

That's called obtaining market share. There is a fix market for mouse traps. If you build a better one, you will begin to glean a bigger share of the market.

Called Capitalism.  And it's working out so far.

Yeah , I`m very familiar with Capitalism, but thanks for the attempted lesson! While Capitalism plays a role in everything we do , I was under the assumption that, a "gun building" section on a "traditional" blackpowder site , might actually be about "building" muzzleloaders!!! As time has passed I have noticed that very few actual gunbuilders participate. Some is due to the aging out , dying, health etc. Having been around this sport since the late 70s , I know most of the good builders on a personal level. I can tell you that I have heard from their own mouths why they avoid this site! Kibler kits and know it all newcomers that won`t listen to instruction! You can all be as hyped as you want over these kits but, realize that a lot of the surviving BP shooters came along during a time when "doing it yourself" was the mantra! During the Golden Age of BP shooting the 60s 70s and early 80s most everybody involved  tried to make as much of their kit as possible! Many with varied levels of success. Those were good times! Maybe soon it will all hopefully dry up and be a distant memory!!! The current state  is veiwed with sadness by many who lived during the hey day! Most of them are`nt going to come on here to tell you , they have washed their hands of it and moved on!

[AZshot]

Change is a part of human existance.  For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.

Many people have given their reasons for buying and loving the new, easier to make kits.  Saying they should not be respected for it, is like saying someone who buys a low-end ready to shoot muzzleloader from a store is also not "worthy."  It's a miopic attitude focused only on the question of this thread, "are we losing our builders..." But not caring about the Big Picture, which is demographics changed since the 1970s.  Entertainment did too.  Information did too, as did the amount of free time and disposible income. 

To me, if ANY person of any age wants to get into black powder shooting today, that is a huge win for the whole lifestyle and ethic.  Being elitist and saying "you are not worthy unless you build from scratch" is only worried about the "small picture" of how can Contemporary Long Rifle gunsmiths survive, without acknowledging it takes a ground swell of general interest in black powder, and history, BEFORE someone would consider buying a custom. Same as people poo-pooing someone's Thompson Center in the 80s.

[Bill in Md]

That's called obtaining market share. There is a fix market for mouse traps. If you build a better one, you will begin to glean a bigger share of the market.

Called Capitalism.  And it's working out so far.

Yeah , I`m very familiar with Capitalism, but thanks for the attempted lesson! While Capitalism plays a role in everything we do , I was under the assumption that, a "gun building" section on a "traditional" blackpowder site , might actually be about "building" muzzleloaders!!! As time has passed I have noticed that very few actual gunbuilders participate. Some is due to the aging out , dying, health etc. Having been around this sport since the late 70s , I know most of the good builders on a personal level. I can tell you that I have heard from their own mouths why they avoid this site! Kibler kits and know it all newcomers that won`t listen to instruction! You can all be as hyped as you want over these kits but, realize that a lot of the surviving BP shooters came along during a time when "doing it yourself" was the mantra! During the Golden Age of BP shooting the 60s 70s and early 80s most everybody involved  tried to make as much of their kit as possible! Many with varied levels of success. Those were good times! Maybe soon it will all hopefully dry up and be a distant memory!!! The current state  is veiwed with sadness by many who lived during the hey day! Most of them are`nt going to come on here to tell you , they have washed their hands of it and moved on!

I feel you friend and there is much truth in what you say. I applaud your metal for speaking it publicly. With that said the blame should not be placed  on JK....The blame lies in apathy and it is not just in the building of American Longrifles.....It is all facets of life. We live in an on demand society where men have little patience. I look at JK kits like this....They bring nothing new to the table. Granted you can carve them, inlay them and stain them different colors but you still  will have a  gun that has no uniqueness. They fit the bill for the on demand crowd that has no interest in the road less travelled.....I have no issue with that as I am free to choose my own way, my own road so to speak.

I have been stocking guns for close to 30 years and am fixed in my ways. I am a hobbyist who does this because it makes me happy. I understand that the pro builders use band saws and power tools to expedite the process. I simply choose not to, but  If the customer has no issue , why should I. I hear that JK is a fine scratch builder which makes him bonafide in my opinion. I can't blame the guy for filling a niche.

I have followed this site for years. There are men on this site that I consider to be true masters....Allen Martin is one of them. Don't know if Brad Emig is a member here but he is another....My friend Bobby Hoyt is known for barrel making but he is a fine gun builder in his own right. I saw Rich Pierce on the FB machine and the guns that he puts together are awesome!!...I have taken a little from the recipes that these men offer up and have made my own cake, so to speak. Now that I recently retired I hope to be more active here. Both in giving advice and taking it , for everyman is my superior in that I may learn from him.......take care now.....Bill

 

[Old Time Hunter]

Change is a part of human existance.  For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.

In recreating historical events , arms and accoutrements , "how it was" is the basic idea!!! Duh

[Bill in Md]

Change is a part of human existance.  For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.

I would like to answer this...Please do not assume that your world view must be embraced by those around you. In fact the bitterness you speak of is often practiced by those who embrace "technology" towards those of us who enjoy the road less travelled......

Quick story.....as I have said before I consider myself an archer and bowyer first, and a gun builder second. Years ago I took one of my self backed osage bows to one of the indoor shooting ranges to check them out. There was a very large man bedecked in full carhartt's that asked me "do they really let you hunt with that stick"?, at which I answered in surly tone....I said...." You appear to probably dress out at about 250#. Larger than any whitetail I have taken, with a wider chest".....I then added,  "If you are willing to go down range and get one your hands and knees broad side to me, I assure you that I could bury one of my hand fletched arrows in your chest clean up to the fletchings, canvas bibs and all"....When instantly he became enraged and asked me if I was threatening him at which I replied ..."only stating fact hoss".....

You see he was not happy to have his arrow launching platform born of technology....no sir, he wanted me to embrace his world view and took what was in his head and let it slip through his mouth.....b

[Bill in Md]

Change is a part of human existance.  For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.

In recreating historical events , arms and accoutrements , "how it was" is the basic idea!!! Duh

I agree.....When re-creating 18th and 19th century weapons I bend over backwards to use 18th and 19th century tools and methods

[AZshot]

Look, I've been shooting and loving history and muzzleloaders since I was 13 in the 70s.  I moved out west to have more freedom and open land from my home in North Carolina, where my ancestors married into the Gillespie family in Mills River NC.  I owned mules until recently, and taught my kids to ride, go into the wilderness, hunt.  Other "antique hobbies" are I shoot wetplates, and was doing it when the 2nd generation of them were attending the reenactments and shooting new tintypes.  I use cameras from the 1860s-70s, and make my own chemicals. 

My avatar photo is me holding my first good rifle, a Gillespie built by Don Bruton.  THAT created in me a need to try building (or finishing) one myself. 

My world view is not bitter.  People bemoaning change or how other people build rifles seem bitter to me.  I love history, and love the Kibler kit I built over Christmas.  There seems to be a few people that think their way is the "only true way" and are being critical of any other way.  If that's not bitter....it's elitist.

[Steeltrap]

I know most of the good builders on a personal level. I can tell you that I have heard from their own mouths why they avoid this site!

"Those" builders, whomever they may be, will find out that even sticking their heads in the sand doesn't stop progress.

Many people today simply do not have the time necessary to learn how to build from a block of wood. Family, jobs etc. It's different today than it was in the '70's.

Read the book "Who moved my cheese". "Those" builders would do well to come back to this site, and then leverage what they know while embracing new technology.

[PEARL DRUMS]

The only thing you take with you at death is your knowledge. If bitterness prevents you from sharing? Then take it with you and soak in it for eternity.

I have taught many dozens to make self bows and will teach anybody that has the determination to come over to the shop and learn. The cost of zero is affordable for most. I love sharing everything I have learned because everything I have learned was freely shared with me.

[L Meadows]

I can only imagine the $#@* and giggles Jim gets when he reads some of the responses to his kits! Some of these “good old days” responses reminds me of an elderly gentleman listening in on a conversation at church one morning. After a few minutes he was asked “brother, don’t you miss the good old days?”, to which he immediately responded “absolutely not, I grew up in those so called good old days, I enjoy indoor plumbing and electricity along with all the other modern conveniences!”.
In reading some of these posts it seems everyone back in the “good old days” built their own guns and everything else! Makes you wonder how gunbuilders stayed in business with everyone building their own!
 As to Jim Kibler, keep cranking them out Jim, you don’t seemed to be having any trouble selling your products!
 And I’m still hoping you will offer a percussion SMR!😀

[rich pierce]

[I have followed this site for years. There are men on this site that I consider to be true masters....Allen Martin is one of them. Don't know if Brad Emig is a member here but he is another....My friend Bobby Hoyt is known for barrel making but he is a fine gun builder in his own right. I saw Rich Pierce on the FB machine and the guns that he puts together are awesome!!...I have taken a little from the recipes that these men offer up and have made my own cake, so to speak. Now that I recently retired I hope to be more active here. Both in giving advice and taking it , for everyman is my superior in that I may learn from him.......take care now.....Bill

Bill, highlight of my hobby building career, to be mentioned with builders I consider great. I must take really good pictures! It’s possible that if I lived in their neck of the woods and started going pro in the 1980s I’d be just about there by now. Still having fun, trying to make interesting guns. I’ve got parts for at least another dozen in stock but am moving toward New England fowlers lately. Fun to try new directions.

There will always be custom guns made so long as in every generation some step up to make parts. I’m very encouraged by young builders with a wide range of skills who could do whatever they put their mind to.

[Bill in Md]

[I have followed this site for years. There are men on this site that I consider to be true masters....Allen Martin is one of them. Don't know if Brad Emig is a member here but he is another....My friend Bobby Hoyt is known for barrel making but he is a fine gun builder in his own right. I saw Rich Pierce on the FB machine and the guns that he puts together are awesome!!...I have taken a little from the recipes that these men offer up and have made my own cake, so to speak. Now that I recently retired I hope to be more active here. Both in giving advice and taking it , for everyman is my superior in that I may learn from him.......take care now.....Bill

Bill, highlight of my hobby building career, to be mentioned with builders I consider great. I must take really good pictures! It’s possible that if I lived in their neck of the woods and started going pro in the 1980s I’d be just about there by now. Still having fun, trying to make interesting guns. I’ve got parts for at least another dozen in stock but am moving toward New England fowlers lately. Fun to try new directions.

There will always be custom guns made so long as in every generation some step up to make parts. I’m very encouraged by young builders with a wide range of skills who could do whatever they put their mind to.

Rich, your name appeared on my FB page as "people you might know"....When I clicked on your page I was blown away by that pre-rev 20 bore fowler with the 4 foot Ed Rayl Barrel you posted a couple years back. Tastefully done!!!...I'll bet that thing hangs perfect off-hand....Even more impressive is the obvious love you and your wife share. As man who also shares a 45 year love affair with my wife, I feel that is the greatest thing we both share....If you would accept, I would love to send you a F.R......bill

[foresterdj]

Some of the comments in this thread crack me up.

1. I am a pure amateur. I tried a few times from p!ank and have accepted that is not part of my skill set. I have used partial in laid and "built" using parts sourced from various places. I know for sure making a lock or a barrel is something I would never even try.

2. There are pro master craftsmen who post on this site. Undeniable artistry beyond what 95% of us could do. To view their work is humbling beyond belief. Often makes me want something I could never build or afford myself.

3. I did build a Kibler SMR, and now working on a Kibler fowler. With less effort and skill they give me a gun way better than I can build myself. I do try to put some unique adornment on them just because. None-the-less, they are still clearly his design. I am OK with that. They turn out nice and are fun to shoot and historically based. But not historically copied.

4. That is the funny thing about some of these comments. Folks lamenting kits, Kibler's in particular as just clones of one thing. When so many times I have read over just the few years I have been here amateur builders being chastised for not building something exactly matching some old gun in a book. Apparently having multiple guns look the same is only good if they were started from scratch, preferably with wood from a tree your grandpa planted.

[Rocketman58]

In my experience, kits serve a valuable purpose for those of us not skilled and /or committed  enough to the muzzle loading hobby enough to build a rifle from scratch.  I myself have a good dozen interests in the shooting world that vary from airguns, action pistol, precision 22, trap shooting  bullseye pistol, centerfire...... In short, black powder is just one facet of my shooting interests and it competes for my time with the others.   At 66, my eyes are going and my mechanical/artistic skills stagnated with arthritis and diabetes.   So for me, the 3 kits I've built (including my current Kibler SMR) are likely as involved in gun building as I'm ever going to venture.  I have no skills for stock shaping, precision inletting, intricate carving, metal shaping/ forging etc. This is pretty much as good as I get. 
That said, I'm grateful for the availability of good kits and really enjoy the building process / level of effort involved. The kit gives me some output for the skills/passion I have without over commuting my time or skills.
 To those committed enough to build from scratch, I envy your skills and the ability to focus on a single hobby like that.  I really do. It's just not going to ever be my path.  I won't apologize for it either. To each their own.

p.s. My Thanks for Jim Kibler for taking me that next step over the previous traditions/CVA kits I tried. In my experience, he has found the right balance of testing skills required for the average Joe vs the potential quality of the finished rifle. This SMR likely won't be the last of his kits i purchase.

[Scota4570]

The modern kits and parts are in addition to whatever we had before.  They do not take away, they add to.  Any individual can choose to build however they want. 

The modern quality kits can inspire individuals to build from scratch.  For instance, I wanted a percussion lock for a Kibler SMR.  I did my research and made a very nice percussion lock for my SMR.  Without a high quality to lock to inspire and emulate I probably would not have made it. 

I have suffered with CVA and TC locks.  They are horrible excuses.  That helps me appreciate high quality.  I remember a conversion with a person who tried muzzle loading with a CVA back in the 80s.  He gave up and condemned all MLs as unreliable junk. 

[Bill in Md]

A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?

[Scota4570]

A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?

I have assembled about 10 of them. 

Virtually no inletting is required.  IF something goes in to hard then use some marker on the part and see where it is binding.  The square edges, like on a trigger guard might benefit from being sharpened up. 

I like to loosen up the tang fit on the SMRs.  So far they have all been a bit tight for my sensibilities.  The tag is so easy to bend if you mess it up.  It only takes light scraping along the length.  I also loosen the lolly pop end fit a tiny bit.  Your marker transfer is you friend here.  It may not be necessary on all SMR kits. 

The touch hole liner is already installed. 

Kibler has a suggested tool list.  They also have videos to follow along with.  The instructions are good and work.  Sanding is a skill, Kibler has sanding in his videos.  Little sanding is needed. 

IF you pay attention it it totally doable by almost anyone.  You could slam one of these kits together as received and have a working rifle. 

[yellowhousejake]

If Jim had not made kits, suppliers would still be drying up. It's not his kits, it's the age of the people building guns and supplying those builders that is the problem. We do not need less kit guns, we need more, younger, people entering the hobby. It may be that the Kibler guns put a quality rifle in hands that might not have gotten one otherwise. We should be encouraging those shooters to build a second rifle, and a third.

I spoke with Mr. Hoyt a few months ago about a new barrel and he said he has no one to turn over his skills to. He has a helper who can do most of the work, a niece I think, but she will not be taking over. If I was 18 and single, I would be knocking on his door tomorrow.

I am fairly certain that paint by number sets did not harm the art world in the least.

DAve

[john bohan]

This all reminds me of Pa. in the  1970's, everyone was holding a T/C Hawken to hunt with. Mabey Kibler kits will do the same thing for a while, but I am sure there be many people who want to test themselves and find out just what they can do as I have.

[Hawg]

A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?

My woodsrunner didn't need any woodwork other than final sanding. All the holes were drilled and everything fit right out of the box. The colonial and SMR are harder kits unless something has changed. Holes need to be drilled and the lock bolt holes have to be drilled and tapped. I think they require some finish work on the inlets. The tool marks weren't even bad on the barrel. Jim says to draw file them out but I found it too easy to get the file off level so I just sanded them down close enough to brown it. You don't have to have a perfectly slick surface to brown like you do with bluing. This is the barrel still in the shipping crate.



Butt plate and trigger guard come installed.





As for the lock I filed down the parting lines from the mold on the cock and frizzen and left everything else as it was.



 

It even comes with a flint installed.

[Bill in Md]

A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?

I have assembled about 10 of them. 

Virtually no inletting is required.  IF something goes in to hard then use some marker on the part and see where it is binding.  The square edges, like on a trigger guard might benefit from being sharpened up. 

I like to loosen up the tang fit on the SMRs.  So far they have all been a bit tight for my sensibilities.  The tag is so easy to bend if you mess it up.  It only takes light scraping along the length.  I also loosen the lolly pop end fit a tiny bit.  Your marker transfer is you friend here.  It may not be necessary on all SMR kits. 

The touch hole liner is already installed. 

Kibler has a suggested tool list.  They also have videos to follow along with.  The instructions are good and work.  Sanding is a skill, Kibler has sanding in his videos.  Little sanding is needed. 

IF you pay attention it it totally doable by almost anyone.  You could slam one of these kits together as received and have a working rifle.

So basically these are not gun kits at all, but rather guns being sold in the white. I have no problem with that, but should they not be marketed as such so that the buyer is aware that he will have no sweat equity in the piece other than staining and blueing?....How do guns sold  in the white teach young "builders" or old "builders" gun making skills?......I think I have had my say in this thread. I can add nothing further to it.....Unless I am directly questioned I will yield the floor gentlemen.....Bill

[Hawg]

So basically these are not gun kits at all, but rather guns being sold in the white. I have no problem with that, but should they not be marketed as such so that the buyer is aware that he will have no sweat equity in the piece other than staining and blueing?....How do guns sold  in the white teach young "builders" or old "builders" gun making skills?......I think I have had my say in this thread. I can add nothing further to it.....Unless I am directly questioned I will yield the floor gentlemen.....Bill

I wouldn't call them guns in the white. They do require some work but I do see your point. Would I rather have a rifle I built out of a plank myself? You betcha but I'm 68 years old and never developed any woodworking skills. I tried to build a CVA pistol kit in the 70's that was 95% inlet. I got it to shoot but it looked like $#@*. The Kibler kits allow me to have a rifle at a level of quality and originality that I'd never have otherwise. Like it or not there is a market for them and it's mostly people like me buying them that aren't going to hurt the scratch builders. We were never going to buy anything from a scratch builder anyway. That's just my take on it.

[recurve]

the joy is in the journey , learning new things and the more work involved the greater gratification and satisfaction on a job well done.  A feeling of I've earned this ..... and yes the mistakes add to the build experience, prompting me to do better on the next build ... next build ....next build

                                                                                 >>>-->God Willing 

[Scota4570]

All the work is not done for you. The parts you see the most, finishing, carving, engraving and such are all up to as the assembler.  What  you learn is what a ML is supposed to be made like, the mechanical details and the architecture.  You do not learn that from an old school parts sets or mass marked kits full of cheap cast parts. You do not learn that from a drawing or picture.  Assembling, holding and studying a Kibler made me understand much better what I did not know.   They improved my full scratch builds a lot.  Not everyone has access to quality originals to study. 

The actual in letting and metal work is just grunt work.  IT is the bare minimum.  A decent machinist or model maker can do it.  It is not artistic.  Until you hold and study a well made rifle you have no idea what your own work is lacking.  To put it another way, you could try to copy a sculpture from a picture.  You would fail.  To get in the ball part you need to compare your work side by side with the original.  You need to lay hands on it and understand the contours.  Then if you have talent and experience you may get close.  With making hundreds of guns from scratch comes the ability to pull it off.  Jim Kibler gives you that experience and talent with every kit. 

Not that I am telling anyone they are having fun wrong. Any time shooting is good for the hobby. 

But a shoddy gun put to together in an amateurish way is not "just as good".  I have noticed that some people get very upset when you try to help them.  The defend their gun like a proud parent.  They take it personally, being disrespectful of  their gun,  and making a personal attack.   

[JTR]

I've only seen one kit, in the box.
It's looks to me that if you skip the wood finish, you could have one of these kits put together and be shooting it in about an hour!

Seems my words above might have been misunderstood. If I was going to put a kit together, this would be the one!
John