Shop is humming with British guns

[smart dog]

Dave,

Do you really think this engraving is representative of even mid grade eighteenth century English work?  Come on…. You need to study more.

I’d be happy to defend my statements with original work. 

A man on a fast horse would think it looks okay, but when you start to look at details it falls apart.

I believe this is the truth.  Is it okay to post?

Hi Jim,
It is exactly up to snuff based on 18th century work.  You need to study more. I also note this comment came from you after I posted a note asking why your lock springs are so heavy? 

dave

[Jim Kibler]

You are correct to note this came after your comment.  I try to play nice until others chose not to.  I’d been holding my tongue on this and decided not to after the latest shot from you.  And yes, there have been many.  So would you like me to present my case?

[Mgray]

Dave,

Do you really think this engraving is representative of even mid grade eighteenth century English work?  Come on…. You need to study more.

I’d be happy to defend my statements with original work. 

A man on a fast horse would think it looks okay, but when you start to look at details it falls apart.

I believe this is the truth.  Is it okay to post?

Good Evening Mr. Kibler

First, I believe you should be directly talking to the person(s) who designed the engraving and that would be John Twigg and myself.
Page 42 plate 15 in Keith Neal and David Back's book "Great British Gunmakers" will bring you to the original engraving of the barrel tang which is on the pair of rifles by John Twigg for the Earl of Aylesford around 1779. I believe them to be mounted in either iron or steel. Now, page 43 plate 18 will bring you to the engraving of the buttplate we copied and then slightly altered to meet the desires of my customer. The original pictured is of the highest quality by John Twigg and mounted in silver again for the Earl of Aylesford in 1779. The inspiration for the sideplate comes from plate 412 in the same book this one by John Lett in 1775, again slightly altered to fit the desires of my customer but still keeping the historic context in mind with the additions to the sideplate coming from various engravings of the time.

I believe you need to study more mid to high quality English work.

Best,
Maria Gray

[Jim Kibler]

Ha!  You come to the rescue.  I’ll be happy to put together a presentation on a variety grades of English work and compare how this stacks up. 

A few points in general…. As mentioned, the overall composition isn’t bad but the engraving is sloppy.  There is a difference between the looseness of good English work and sloppiness. 

The shape of engraving cuts are also of paramount importance in English work.  This certainly hasn’t been captured in this work.

Finally overall scroll shape and form is lacking in some areas.  In my opinion of course. 

As mentioned, looking at this fast it looks okay, but slow down and it falls apart when compared to standards followed by decent English work. 

[Jdbeck]

Dave always a pleasure to see you at Kempton. I learned a lot from your lectures. Maria is in great hands under your Master tutelage. Passing things on to the next generation is at the core of this hobby/art.

[Craig Wilcox]

Miss Gray, it has been a great pleasure to watch your work over the past few years.  Brings joy to this old heart to see the progress you have made.

You, young lady, are a great gunsmith!

[JTR]

I think Kiblers comments should be deleted from this thread!

He posted here with a chip on his shoulder and a singular intent to get even.
This forum is not the place for this sort of petty BS!

John

[Jim Kibler]

JTR,

I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken in your assesment.   Here's how it worked...

I saw this days ago and in my mind didn't agree with the quality level "declarations".  Why would I take issue?  Because I love and and appreciate English work, engraving included.  I've studied it in detail and feel I have a very good grasp of it.  Consider a comparison for you...  A fellow comes out and makes a longrifle and states it matches the work of your favorite maker.  I'm sure you have one since you've collected some great guns.  You'd probably think in your head "this isn't so" and it might rub you a bit.

Well, as I said I try not to give unsolicited opinions, but when provoked enough times I will.  The street goes two ways.  There has been a history of certain people piling on or trying to take shots at me and our business.  Not well meaning suggestions, but shots.

After a while holding my tongue becomes too much and then I'm more than willing to play their game.  I don't subscribe to just turning the other cheek.

Like it or not, that's the story.  If you want more details, PM me and I'll gladly expand on things. 



Mods,

You won't hurt my feelings if you want to delete this or anything else in this thread.

[Bob Gerard]

This has been a very enjoyable thread to read and learn from.
Unfortunately it seems to be in the process of being hijacked by someone for spite.
I actually am not surprised, unfortunately.

Thanks Dave and Maria for taking so much time to document and help teach us how you go about your wonderful work!
I, for one, have followed and learned a lot, and think my own work (as crude as it is) has really benefited from your tutorials.

[Itchy finger]

Simply beautiful work by both of you.

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
Thank you for the support.  More will be coming soon.  I don't mind Jim's comments.  Somehow he feels persecuted by whom I don't know.  Anyway, I will be posting more of our British work.  It looks like we are finally getting TRS parts for Brown Besses so I'll be showing that as well as I am beginning an early 18th century English sporting gun modeled after John Manton.  There are lots of little nuances that I will be sharing.  Finally, I am hoping to get started on another set of British dueling pistols if I can get the lock parts I need.  I would really like to see Chris Laubach make a nice English pistol lock. That would be the ticket.  I will be giving a seminar on building British dueling pistols at Kempton.  I hope to see you there.

More to come.

dave

[wvcruffler]

I have a Brown Bess (the 542B parts set) on order from TRS and they think it will be filled in the next month or so (sounds like they have a few stocks to cut!). Will be trying to look at pics of extant samples so I can get it reasonably close. I have no skill as yet as a builder but one must start somewhere!  Thanks for this great thread.

Dr Phil

[Jdw276]

This is a guild forum populated with a bunch of experienced apprentices and folks who are self taught via books.  Their teachers taught them well or they studied books from masters.  These folks are always right because they did the work. As a result they are always right never wrong and anyone who challenges them is wrong.  Sometimes they Even come on here looking for a fight.  Most will not admit there are many schools of thought and areas of the world along with time periods.  They are to stubborn to admit anyone else could possibly have a different answer that is correct.  That is why they resort to name calling or disparaging remarks.

Me i am a lefty wit two right thumbs and this forum is not for me.

[Clowdis]

There are also different levels of craftmanship to consider, even in British and French gunmaking. I don't think it's correct to hold a beginning gunmaker to the same standards as the high art British makers, especially when they are "copying" a different type or class of engraving. There are other parts of the fowler that don't meet the highest class of gunmaking either, but that's not the point of this discussion. Clearly for a first effort this is an outstanding fowler.

[aaronc]

Maria and Dave, enjoyed the progress pics and informative write ups. Outstanding work.