studying originals?

[Jim Kibler]

One of the realizations of running a business such as ours is that the majority of our customers have never really studied any original work and a good percentage don't seem to have an interest in it either.  I realize I come to this with an entirely different background, but find this interesting. 

I remember Rich mentioning this a while ago and was wondering what others thoughts are?  From a personal perspective I would enjoy things more if there was more of an understanding and appreciation for these things, but do understand that everybody has different interests.

So what do you all think?  Any ideas to help promote original work?

[P.Bigham]

I am not sure how to promote the study of original work.  There is plenty of resources if someone is interested.  Most competition shooters and reenactors are happy if it's close.
Many builders are happy if it's close or follow contemporary work.  The top shelve builders seem to be the ones that study original works.

[Jakob]

So what do you all think?  Any ideas to help promote original work?

Well, to play devils advocate, people don't need to when they can buy kit rifles with no need to study originals .

[Jim Kibler]

I’m not talking about having to, but rather wanting to.  Some study even though they aren’t builders.

[Mattox Forge]

I love to study the originals. I have purchased a few original guns in order to study the building techniques and to try to learn how they developed the designs.

As to promoting this, I think showing contemporary and originals side by side is one way. Your kits are remarkable for the accurate portrayal of a gun like and original but not a direct copy. A lot of newer folks don't have reference material or aren't interested in looking at books. YouTube provides most of the education people get now on things of casual and serious interest. If you were show an original and compare and contrast how this are similar and different in a video I think it would be facinating. It would also be enlightening to show the features of originals and how it causes the different styles to be what they are.

Mike

[bama]

When I started building in the early 70's the was so little information available. Now we are blessed with tons of good info but only have a small crowd to appreciate it.

There are so many other distractions for people to do and life moves at a much faster pace than it did even just a few years ago. There are many of the younger crowd that are very into guns but most of the interest lies in the tactical rifles and pistols, some are really into the older military guns. There are very few that are interested in the early American guns but there are some. I think it is mainly because the Longrifles are not heavely advertised on very many platforms. On many platforms you can not promote any firearms or very few and those are censored so they get very little attention.

That's why we all have to be ambassador's about the long rifles and promote their historical importance and as an early American art form.

Jim, I think you are doing a great job promoting the long rifle with your kits and products. The KRA and KRF are putting in some good efforts promoting the American long rifle. Both of these organizations were represented at the Annual NRA Convention this past weekend. Mel Hankla ha put up a fantastic Rev. War period display for the KRA and the KRF had a booth to promote the KRA and what it does. We had 4 very nice original rifles and we were handing out flyers right and left and we handed out 100's of coloring books that teaches about the Long rifle and it's history. The kids loved them.

For many years I have set at the shows and listened to many talk about the lack of interst or that the long rifle crowd is getting old and there's no one to pick up the tourch. I for one am not going to set around and cry about it. I am going to do my best as long as the Good Lord allows me to promote the heritage of the American Longrifle, it's beauty and it's historical significance's. The CLA is another great organization that's helping our cause. This forum and the other Muzzle Loading sites help promote the longrifle. We have come a long way over the last 50 years, I remember when all we had were a few books and that was it.

Jim and ever keep up the good work, it will pay off in the long run.

[rich pierce]

One idea would be for different folks to periodically post an example of a style of original that has many traits of guns made in that place and timeframe in this forum or in the Antique Gun Collecting forum.  Then follow up with how features of Lancaster rifles changed over time.

Example: start by presenting and discussing a Lancaster rifle by Dickert 1770-1790, followed by later Lancaster rifles including Fordney. Then branch into less typical Lancaster rifles with unique features and carving such as Fainot, Newcomer, Fondersmith. This template could work for any “school” or era of interest.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=84690.0

[Carl Young]

Bama said it better than I could. Like Mike I have bought originals to study with a thought to making a copy.

Regards,
Carl

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
You are exactly right that viewing originals is very valuable and the question is why don't more folks do it.  Part of the answer is access.  You and I and many other established makers have no problem getting invites to view collections and handle museum specimens. Most builders don't have that access and they may view guns in museums and photos  but cannot actually handle and examine the guns close up.  I spend many days each year inspecting original guns.  The first thing I do with a historical project is seek out the originals and examine them in the hand. However, most folks do not have those connections and looking at originals is restricted to seeing them behind glass at museums and shows or photos on the internet.  That can be valuable but it rarely provides the details that make or break a historical build. The alternative is to buy the best books showing originals from many angles.  Some do that but many of those books are rare and expensive.  Those of us who have easy access to many originals are a privileged class.   

dave 

[Jim Kibler]

The real thing in hand is wonderful and the best, but as mentioned, often not possible.  The next best thing are books and images.  There was a time that I didn't have any access to see original work, but poured over and studied any resource I could find.  I'd guess I've learned as much from this as actual guns in my hand.

Jim

[Joe Stein]

I don't get to many shows, mostly The Baltimore show and Mac Spencer 's Eastern Kentucky Rifle show and whatever I can see at Kempton. If people can get to them, they will be able to see and handle quite a few original guns. Many times at the Baltimore show and especially Mac's show, I have been encouraged to pick up and examine a gun or several at someone's table, even before I had expressed any interest in doing that. If you ask nicely, and especially if you ask questions about the gun, you will be given permission to pick it up and examine it. It usually helps if the first thing that you do is shoulder the gun. Examine it's decorative features and architecture first. Compliment the exhibitor and thank them for letting you see the gun
This is stuff that everyone who has already posted knows, but maybe it will help someone who is apprehensive about asking.

[VP]

One idea would be for different folks to periodically post an example of a style of original that has many traits of guns made in that place and timeframe

To follow up on Rich's comment of seeing examples or originals at no cost, a good source is the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's Facebook page. I know Facebook isn't a favorite place for a lot of people but the Foundation is posting rifles with some brief comments about them regularly. It covers rifles made in Virginia, NC, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, etc.

Take a look and see. Go to Facebook.com and search "Kentucky Rifle Foundation".

VP

[Mattox Forge]

Sometimes an original can't be obtained to copy. All of the great books out there and often even auction photos provide really good source material and data to develop from.





Even if the original were on hand to measure, creating a variation that remains true to the original design is difficult. I have attempted to discern how these guns were designed out so that I can develop drawings of variations for different locks, pulls, or barrel size changes.







Mike

[Hawg]

Jim, I owe you an apology. I think some of my remarks helped spark this whole debate between original Hawken rifles and yours. I did not intend that nor did I mean to sound like I was disparaging your work. Your rifles are top notch. I have one of your woodsrunners and absolutely love it. I know  it's not a copy of any particular rifle or maker but it's something that could have been and maybe was made by somebody. I feel like your Hawken falls into the same category. If somebody came in and ordered one that way they would have built one that way. You yourself have said your is an improvement on the original. It's lighter, thinner wrist, different butt plate design etc., etc. Now I don't claim to be an expert on Hawken rifles. I am far from it but when I had mine built I bought some books and a set of blueprints that were supposedly made off an original but even it is not typical of what came out of the Hawken shop but there are examples of it. I ordered it without a patch box or entry pipe because some of them did come that way and yes I wanted to have something different than the run of the mill Hawken so I do not have a lot of room to talk. If I did not have mine I would want one of yours. I hope you will accept my apology and I will try to keep my mouth shut from now on.

[smart dog]

One idea would be for different folks to periodically post an example of a style of original that has many traits of guns made in that place and timeframe

To follow up on Rich's comment of seeing examples or originals at no cost, a good source is the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's Facebook page. I know Facebook isn't a favorite place for a lot of people but the Foundation is posting rifles with some brief comments about them regularly. It covers rifles made in Virginia, NC, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, etc.

Take a look and see. Go to Facebook.com and search "Kentucky Rifle Foundation".

VP

Hi VP,
Many folks on the forum post detailed photos of originals.  We also have a large photo library of originals available to everyone.

dave

[Ian Pratt]

To expand on Mike's suggestion -   Jim,  you have a ton of people watching your instructional videos and I think you have a great opportunity to educate some folks - I have seen where a lot of new students in gunmaking classes often seem completely focused on learning the mechanics of building and don't always appreciate the importance of studying original work. I' m sure this seems an odd disconnect to most of us here but it' s a real thing.  I'll have example guns and books available in class and oftentimes  I'll still have to take people over to the gun rack or sit down with them and open some books. Showing them how and more importantly why  to study becomes part of the class.

So how about some videos comparing original guns? Say you have three original rifles of the same school and roughly the same period. One might be a little clunky compared to the others, the next shows improvement, and one is what you consider a great examp!e of when things went right. Go through them and point out the differences and explain why those differences are important. This is similar to an approach we took in a relief carving class you and I taught a while back where we passed out printouts of three carved Shroyer guns that  all had similar cheek side carving. One was the most successful, one the least. In a way we were teaching art appreciation as much as anything else and it was great to see people understanding it as we explained the things we were seeing.

I know a video of this nature would require you to either own the subject guns or to borrow from a collector who' d not be offended by these differences being pointed out.

You' d also have an opportunity to offer links to ALR and show some books to people who either don' t read books or are just unaware that longrifle books exist . You might even do a video or two like I described while at a show. I know your business is making kits and not promoting events etc, but I think you are in a position where you could reach a whole lot of people. Not all of them will be interested but plenty of them would be.

[Jim Kibler]

Jim, I owe you an apology. I think some of my remarks helped spark this whole debate between original Hawken rifles and yours. I did not intend that nor did I mean to sound like I was disparaging your work. Your rifles are top notch. I have one of your woodsrunners and absolutely love it. I know  it's not a copy of any particular rifle or maker but it's something that could have been and maybe was made by somebody. I feel like your Hawken falls into the same category. If somebody came in and ordered one that way they would have built one that way. You yourself have said your is an improvement on the original. It's lighter, thinner wrist, different butt plate design etc., etc. Now I don't claim to be an expert on Hawken rifles. I am far from it but when I had mine built I bought some books and a set of blueprints that were supposedly made off an original but even it is not typical of what came out of the Hawken shop but there are examples of it. I ordered it without a patch box or entry pipe because some of them did come that way and yes I wanted to have something different than the run of the mill Hawken so I do not have a lot of room to talk. If I did not have mine I would want one of yours. I hope you will accept my apology and I will try to keep my mouth shut from now on.

No worries at all, Hawg.  You don't need to offer any apology!  Thank you for thinking of me though.  This has been something on my mind for many years, but have never really talked about it much.  So everything is good

[Bob Roller]

With the Kibler's abiiity to come up with fine parts the making of a half stock rifle in 54 and 58 caliber with a shotgun butt stock would be a superb hunting rifle in flint or caplock.Tom Dawson made some fine Hawken copies with all the wear and damage seen on some old ones but he said."The best any of us will do is make a representative type".
Bob Roller

[Dave B]

I've always enjoyed making things and been fascinated with how things are made. So it's been intrigued by looking at how things were done back in the day. Long rifle's being an interest of mine. I know all guns basically. But I think the important thing is to know why they did the things they did how they did the things they did and how they got the look.  That they did in the processes that they followed in in making the guns. It's always been intriguing to be able to find those clues and notice. The subtle details that make a particular school. Have that look the correct architecture? There are a few that can accomplish that from a block of wood.  A lot of the builders use precarved stocks. Gets you a product much quicker, and for those that like to do a lot of shooting and have something that looks authentic. It 'expedites the matter. My interest has always been in taking something from a chunk of wood and creating something that's functional as well as attractive. It has blown my mind out of a group of guys getting together for the gun Maker. Fare only maybe 3 out of 25 will actually pick up an original to examine it. I suppose to talk about you know different projects they have going on and I've always wondered at the fact that there's only so many.  Out of a bunch that are really intrigued by looking at the details, and I've always been grateful at least in our area. There are very few originals to be looked at and almost non-existent at any of the gun shows living at the time in the Portland area. The big gun shows at the convention center. There was only 1 or 2 tables that had anything worth looking at and of those may be only 2 or 3 originals that 1 could look at.  So I envy those living back East where there's a lot more available to study than we have out here in the West.

[Hungry Horse]

 I totally agree with DaveB on this one. The western states are a virtual waste land for middle grade, and lower grade muzzleloading firearm of the past. They mostly just got used/repaired up. High end guns are rarer but seem to fair better as did guns that because they were made to be used back East were functionally worthless out west. A friend found a Henry Deringer rifle in an old house that was being torn down that was one big fat repair. There was virtually nothing on that gun that hadn’t been repaired, or replaced. Muzzleloaders were use a lot longer out on the west coast because even though cartridge guns were known, and available out west, cartridges were often few, and far between. But powder was sold everywhere, as was lead, and percussion caps.

Hungry Horse

[yellowhousejake]

Forgive the intrusion but this is not from a long time ALR viewer, builder, collector. Instead, from someone with that great interest that Jim is asking about.

I am not retired, yet, and I cannot attend weekday shows or travel six times a year to visit them. Even when I do retire I will not have the money to so often, as to the time for that, my wife has hobbies too. So, I have to buy books or hunt online for photos. Quality photos are few and far between. But I am far from the only person I know that will spend two hours downloading auction photos when I can find them, for later study.

The best books are out of print and when found command very high prices. There are DVDs, but it is hard to hold two DVDs up together and compare two rifles. If I could, I might not know what I am looking at. If you could buy books, at a reasonable price (sub $30), that had annotated pictures like those posted by Mattox Forge. I would own several. Maybe a set of books organized by school, with at least some minor explanation/example of the differences between the schools showing side by side photos of the details that make a Lancaster a Lancaster, and not a Bedford. I have found the ALR library a great resource, if you know what you are looking for, and looking at.

In my opinion, my opinion only, the study of originals comes with a high barrier to entry. If there were a more "entry level" way to learn the design/style/history of these American art forms, in small bites, it may gain traction. But like anything else it would be slow and require promotion.

Those are my thoughts from the cheap seats...

DAve

[rich pierce]

Dave, it can be done here. All that’s needed is a post asking, “what makes a Bedford a Bedford and not a Lancaster?”  Or anything like that.

Also, if one could afford one book and wanted to focus on Pennsylvania rifles, Kindig’s book on Golden Age is the one. It’s old but well organized and has a lot of biographical and historical material and covers a wide range of longrifles. Much has been learned since then but you’ll not find another book that covers this much ground. A beat up one like mine from 1980 ought to sell for about $30. Paper cover, back cover gone.

[yellowhousejake]

Rich, that is why I am here ;^) But who knows this forum exists?

I have been recommended Kindig's book many times, I bought Shumway's first, then the Moravian books as that is where my interest lies. Always looking for hints on what makes a rifle a certain school and I love the discussions on that topic when I find them.

I have seen the suggestion before on this forum for a book that was dedicated to showing the differences, even if it was a high level beginner book, just the basics. "This is a Bedford, see the comb, the butt, the box. This is a Lancaster, notice the lines. Southern Mountain rifles always seem to have these features." Etc.

I would buy that book, hardbound.

DAve

[Dwshotwell]

I don’t get much opportunity to handle originals, and trying to learn from books, this site, etc. is not always easy. It’s difficult for a beginner to look at two different rifles and understand what features go with which schools, and, furthermore, what gunsmiths belong to which schools. Further complicating it is the changes over time.

I’ve thought about trying to make a sort of chart with time on the horizontal axis, and then rows for different schools, listing what some of the common traits for those rifles might be, along with prominent examples and smiths. Maybe this already exists?

[mikeyfirelock]

    The most valuable resource I have had in the years I have been building rifles,
( since 1972) has been the books which provide not only pictures, but good descriptions and measurements. A number of other books which cover the practical aspects ( tools and their use, for example ) are also very value able .  These have provided me with the knowledge to make some very presentable  rifles .( Good enough to have others ask me to build for them……   But I make no claims for being an
accomplished builder .).    For anyone who would build rifles, I would suggest that the most valuable set of tools you could have would be a selection of a few books which would cover the above mentioned aspects of muzzleloading rifles and their use..