Can you identify the maker?

[utseabee]

I am posting this signed rifle to see what people think. I will share the information on the builder later on after people take a shot at identifying this rifle. Who do you think the builder was? Please describe what makes you come to your conclusion. The rifle is from Lancaster Pa and there were several people building rifles of this style. This rifle has drawn a good bit of interest at the last several shows where it was displayed. What do you think?

[gusd]

M. or J. Fordney

[utseabee]

M. or J. Fordney

    One of the Fordneys is a good guess, but neither of them is the maker of this one. Hint- there's a good chance that the rifle was made in a Fordney Shop

[Carper]

Leman ……just enough like the Fordney’s  but yet that box and butt shape are not

[rich pierce]

For the purposes of teaching and learning, can folks share what the clues were for the guesses you made? And when would you say it was made +\- 10 years?
I’m not an expert but the patchbox with the side plates separated from the lid inclined me to Lancaster 1820-ish. The shape and boldness of side plate and patchbox engraving suggested an association with one of the Fordneys. The nosecap with the chevron is one I’ve seen on a Fordney.  Same for the wrist checkering and guard shape. The lock and curvature of the buttplate and the lack of carving on an engraved gun suggested 1820 or later to me.

[Buck]

Is there any engraving on the barrel? I’m of the same opinion it’s not a Fordney, however there were the Siples, Jesse Pannabecker, and G. Feder who traveled in and out of that circle. The heavy handed engraving was a Schweitzer/ Fordney staple and causes me to eliminate Feder. It’s an attractive rifle, thanks for sharing.

Buck

[blienemann]

H Gibbs, based upon patchbox and overall profile and details. Ca 1830's Bob

[utseabee]

Leman ……just enough like the Fordney’s  but yet that box and butt shape are not

     Bingo. The rifle is signed He Leman and not stamped like his later rifles. The signature is very faint on this one, but it is there. The lock is a Dreppert lock. Henry Leman apprenticed under Melchoir Fordney from 1828 to 1831 before moving on to Tryon and then going out on his own. The consensus on this rifle is that it was built between 1828 and 1831 while apprenticing with Melchior Fordney. If this is true, it would be one of the earliest if not the earliest Leman rifle out there. This rifle appears to use Fordney's hardware, and I have seen several Fordney's with Dreppert locks. Leman used either his own locks or cheaper import locks on a lot of his later rifles. The molding lines on the forestock break at the barrel keys and I believe that may be common with Melchoir Fordney rifles. The cheek piece inlay appears to be similar to Dreppert's rifles. The patchbox release in the toeplate is common for Lancaster rifles of the time period. The checkering of the wrist is not the same as Melchoir Fordney did, it looks closer to me like what would be on a Dreppert or Gibbs rifle. At the very least, this rifle proves that Henry Leman could build a nice rifle.
   To answer the question from Buck, the barrel is engraved for about 3" on each side of the rear sight. Like Bob, I would have guessed Henry Gibbs based on the patchbox. I have seen several Gibbs rifles with similar boxes. I think that I have also seen similar boxes on some Dreppert rifles also.
    I have always preferred earlier rifles, but lately these later period Lancasters are starting to appeal to me. Do any of you have pictures of a similar type of rifle to share? Thank you for looking.

[rich pierce]

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24869.0

[utseabee]

Here are some more
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=9318.0
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71034.msg709731#msg709731
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71034.msg709730#msg709730

[blienemann]

A fine rifle sir, and thanks for posting, along with the details.

I question whether Leman or any apprentice would stock and sign a rifle as an apprentice - i think the master would maintain control. That does not take away from this rifle. I agree it's probably a very early Leman, possibly in 1837 when he was on his own. There are also some Leman rifles with 36 - 40" barrels, the horsehead patchbox, his typical later mounts but the trigger guard spur curved to the rear. Some feel these may be from his earliest contracts.

I've seen folks suggest that a lesser rifle may have been made by "so and so" while an apprentice, before he had the skills of his master. Again i question whether any such work left a master's shop.

The mounts, including the engraved sideplate may have come from M Fordney or others, and the sideplate may have been engraved before it was put on the rifle.

Much to study and enjoy, thanks, Bob

[utseabee]

A fine rifle sir, and thanks for posting, along with the details.

I question whether Leman or any apprentice would stock and sign a rifle as an apprentice - i think the master would maintain control. That does not take away from this rifle. I agree it's probably a very early Leman, possibly in 1837 when he was on his own. There are also some Leman rifles with 36 - 40" barrels, the horsehead patchbox, his typical later mounts but the trigger guard spur curved to the rear. Some feel these may be from his earliest contracts.

I've seen folks suggest that a lesser rifle may have been made by "so and so" while an apprentice, before he had the skills of his master. Again i question whether any such work left a master's shop.

The mounts, including the engraved sideplate may have come from M Fordney or others, and the sideplate may have been engraved before it was put on the rifle.

Much to study and enjoy, thanks, Bob

Bob,
   Thank you. It is always good to get your thoughts. There is so much for me to learn. I see your point about Fordney controlling the work out of his shop and I had not considered that. More to think about! I sent you a PM about another subject. Hope you can make it to the KRA this year.