Author Topic: reducing trigger pull with siler locks  (Read 19569 times)

Offline sonny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« on: January 18, 2010, 12:28:12 AM »
I have a single trigger rifle that i would love to compete with but the trigger pull was too heavy.I had a fordom grinder an polished the sear spring until i had a lovely 1 pound trigger pull.I had a muzzleloading shoot today an the gun was fast an trigger was light.i cleaned house! I thought maybe i am getting used to the trigger where i adjusted it.When i got home to clean the gun an then replace the lock,i found the lock would not hold full cock......Wish i understood how it could be perfect ,an then keep getting lighter until it won't hold full cock.I don't shoot much???where can i get large siler sear springs to retry perfecting my trigger pull.With my untouched large siler mainspring i am getting 2 1/2 pound trigger pull...ok for turkey shotguns but not my rifle....any help or advice would be appreciated.....................sonny

northmn

  • Guest
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 12:39:09 AM »
You can get the springs from either Jim Chambers, Track of the Wolf or Muzzleloading Builders Supply and possibly Stonewall creek Outfitters.  They are all good websites to visit.  Also check your sear and tumbler to see if they can be filed and if so they are too soft.  There are several factors in getting a good trigger pul whcih include a hgh pivet point, as in half inch and the location of the sear trigger engagement. Also the sear tumbler engagement can be honed if you know what you are doing to maintain an even engagement.  Also there is such a thing as length of pull versus ease.  Some engagements have a longer surface and take more pulling action.

DP

Offline Pete Allan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1301
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 01:19:36 AM »
One thing to remember is the sear spring is only there to put the sear into the notchs. If the angle on the tumbler is correct the sear should hold the lock at full cock without a sear spring. If it doesen't hold a little work with a triangle stone will normally fix it. You just don't need a rifle firing if something as simple as a sear spring gives out or breaks :o Good luck

Offline Ben I. Voss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 347
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 02:11:52 AM »
A one pound trigger pull with a single trigger rifle sounds a little light! Maybe you want to think about a set trigger if you want such a light pull and still be safe. Just a thought.

Offline sonny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 05:31:49 AM »
pete........i never did work on a lock except for the sear spring....stoning the set notch???? geez never did that........why is a 1 or a 1 1/2 pound single trigger seem so imposable.......as far as testing the hardness of tumbler....how would i do that with messing up the works???.sonny

Offline sonny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 05:33:57 AM »
ben....do you really think a 1 or a 1 1/2pond trigger pull is so far off line???for a single trigger......sonny

Offline sonny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 05:35:31 AM »
northmn....where o you get these fancy stones for such fine work as a sear notch in a tumbler....???....sonny

Offline Ben I. Voss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 347
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 06:07:16 AM »
Sonny,  2-4 lbs. seems just fine for a single trigger to me-  I use a set trigger when I want a lighter pull. If the sear won't hold at full cock with the sear spring removed, then the full cock notch on the tumbler is most likely at the wrong angle. Imagine a line from the center of the tumblers axle to the edge of the tumbler at the full cock notch- the face of the notch should follow that line. The nose on the sear should be at about the same angle.I hope that makes sense.  Try brownells.com for stones. Good luck!

northmn

  • Guest
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 03:28:15 PM »
One way to test the hardness is to see if they file.  If they do they are too soft.  Some of the diamond sharpening flats availabel in hardware stores will work and they even sharpen knives.  Get a fine one.  Be careful with diamond as they even cut hardened steel very quickly.  I have a set of diamond needle files that are aggressive on hardened steel that I use to clean up castings on locks I have purchased that should have been cleaned up before I bought them.  See FLflinters add on diamond abrasives and files in the Members Only Ads.  A fish hook hone can smooth the surfaces.  The English in their sporting rifles used pulls of over 2lbs.  

DP
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 03:30:39 PM by northmn »

Offline Pete Allan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1301
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 05:53:31 PM »
What Ben said. I feel if the sear and tumbler are at the right angles and the sear spring is not overly strong a 2-4 lb pull is not a problem for any match shooting. I say this because in the NRA matches I shot in we had to have a min. trigger of 4 1/2 lb and if they were set up right they broke as clean as set triggers.
Another place to get diamond files is Harbor Freight stores. I have not seen them -- their nearest store to me is 80 miles but they are on the internet and they ship anything.

Offline sonny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 06:12:14 PM »
pete............4 1/2 pound pull seems to be m1 rifles..... ;)

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 06:32:52 PM »
Ok, Sonny If you think it will help send me a PM with your address or fax and I'll send you a copy of Keith Casteel's illustrated folder on tuning a flinter (good)
Tried to pm you 3 times no luck...

When I built my smoothy and used a durs egg I had the sear just too far from the trigger axle.  Together with thinning the sear spring and bending the sear some toward the axle smoothing the sear and trigger bar I got it pretty slick.  (Til the m spring broke after much shooting)  Repl spring stiffer $#*! it's a long story anyway I feel your pain! ;D

    Well what the hey, now it seems the pm's went anyway!! ::)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 06:46:53 PM by Roger Fisher »

Offline Pete Allan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1301
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 08:33:35 PM »
Sonny -- you got it right -- I still have one in 06 and one in 762 but I don't shoot them much any more. The one I liked best though was the M14 but they made us turn them in.
As far as trigger weight goes just our service pistols had to have a 3-1/2 lb pull and that was not a problem either. At that weight they went off so easy it was scary :o
Wish I was about 50 years younger -- I would like to get back in that game. >:(

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 09:46:55 PM »
Since I worked them for 23 years on active duty and still do, here's the trigger pulls.

M1 and M14 - 4 1/2 lb minimum as any lighter risks unintentional doubling or full auto fire
.45 pistol "hard ball gun" - 4 lbs.  Same reason
.45 wadcutter gun           - 3 1/2 lbs. Same reason
M1903/A3 Springfield rifle in service rifle competition was 3 lbs though usually set up at about 3 1/2 lbs.  - a solid jarring of the rifle with less of a trigger pull could allow the sear to slip off the firing pin for an unintentional discharge.
Some Bolt Action and non semi auto International pistols are legal and will go off if you raise the gun up to a 45 degree angle or more just from the weight of gravity.

From Muzzleloading Organizations:

International Muzzleloading regulations on trigger pull -
3.16 Trigger Pull - All military long arms shall have a minimum trigger pull of 3 lbs. All other muzzle loading arms are required to have a safe, functional trigger.

North South Skirmish Association regulations for all long arms  minimum 3  pounds and for Revolvers 2 lbs.

I honestly would not want a trigger pull of less than 3 1/2 to 4 lbs on a hunting rifle that wasn't a single set or double set trigger.

BTW, does anyone know the range of trigger pulls that was common on authentic 18th century rifles and fowlers that did not have set triggers? 

Gus Fisher


Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 10:05:56 PM »
Sonny,

The best book I know of to get you through working trigger pulls on long rifles with a lock with  a fly in the tumbler is "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" by Peter Alexander.  I have NO connection with the sales of this book.  Here's a picture of the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Gunsmith-Grenville-County-Building-Longrifle/dp/1880655136

In the following link, there is a lot of good information and drawings to show you about working a lock, though NSSA locks aren't allowed to have a fly in the tumbler.  Still it is good to get an idea of the angles we speak about when working the locks.

http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml

Hope you find this of some use and that you never have to work a trigger job on a Smith Carbine.  Grin.

Gus Fisher

jwh1947

  • Guest
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 05:04:53 AM »
Guys, I gotta' share a story, meant in good humor, but with a serious moral.  As a gunsmith I will not even share in the debate on what is an appropriate trigger pull weight, other than saying that I have seen some low numbers thrown about recently.  I don't even want to be a footnote in the next lawsuit on this matter.

Incidentally, cartridge gunsmiths have been advised by professional groups to be most cautious in trigger work and to never go beyond their "reasonable belief of appropriateness." As you know, competitive shooters abide by weight limits for both fairness and safety reasons. 

Now the story.   Built a rifle to spec. one day for a local hunter.  He demanded an accurate rifle, but it didn't need to be fancy.  I asked him if he wanted a double-set trigger; nope, a single, but it must be light.

Ok, I said.  When the rifle is done we'll take it out to the range together and see if it is to your satisfaction.  We did, and after adjusting the rear sight, he shot a decent group off a bag then hit the steel deer at 100 yards 3 times in a row.
Deal closed.  Well, not exactly.

Next week, he's back.  The trigger is not light enough.  So I tried it, found it acceptable, but went in and polished it.  The weight by my trigger scale was about 1/2 pound less that I guessed it to be and over a pound lighter than I deemed appropriate.  I was happy.  Gun back to customer.

One day after hunting season.  Back again.  Wayne, I missed a deer bacause I was pulling too hard on this trigger.  I said. "Let me see this thing." I try the gun, works fine, light for my tastes, crisp as can be, and simply handed it back to him.  "Sir, you need a psychiartrist, not a gunsmith."   He either found another gunsmith, learned to live with it, or, worse, tried to improve on things himself.  All I know is that I refused to lighten it further.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2010, 06:48:11 AM »
JW,

Knew of a couple of NSSA shooters who did much the same thing only no work was done on their rifles ahead of time.  Their trouble was they didn't cock the hammer all the way back to full cock all the time.  Both broke their half cock notches in the tumbler.  That ain't easy even on the really cheap Italian locks.

One time had a customer who liked the trigger job on his Mississippi UNTIL his "expert" buddy checked the half cock notch.  They both came back with the rifle about 4 hours later.  Well, the hammer throw now had a noticeable bump in it and the trigger was horrible.  The "Expert" had applied so much pressure to the hammer on half cock, that he bent the half cock notch and screwed up the sear.  When I patiently began to explain that was not the way to do it, the "Expert" got all huffy and hostile.  

Fortunately there was a member of the Ordnance Committee at the end of the booth.  (He had been trying to keep from laughing while this was going on.)  So I asked him to explain to  the shooter how one is supposed to check the 1/2 cock.  I made a Grandiose introduction that he had been on the Ordnance Committee for over 15 years before he explained.   The  "Expert" stomped off as he "knew better."  The shooter stood there befuddled as he knew his buddy had screwed it up.  I was able to fix it without replacing the tumbler but I had to replace the sear, so I only charged him for the sear out of pity and nothing for fixing it.  But I DID tell him that if he ever let his buddy touch the musket again, I would do nothing else on it.  

Gus
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 06:56:10 AM by Artificer »

Offline skullcap

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2010, 05:04:37 PM »
just two thoughts . one maybe the 1pound pull is only a guess.just seems so good and crisp must be only apound . did you weightit. a second may be you only tightend the lock bolts to much and its applying pressure on lock . i have same condition on my 40. all just guesses.  rick

Offline sonny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2010, 06:38:47 AM »
jwh1947......actually what trigger pull do you make your single trigger muzzleloaders??...........now i would like to share a story with you meant in good humor............there are many gunsmiths that are quit uncapable of making a trigger with a nice light creep free action...............but they prefer to hid behind liability stories so they can escape from producing quality work..i am sure everybody knows gunsmiths, that when the customer gets the gun home, an really check it out,they find the work is of a much poor quality then they were led to believe they would get before the money changed hands. I bet the same psychiatrist would have a field day with the gunsmiths shortcomings on his work, believing it is good quality an then won't fix it right for liability purposes......jwh1947..........know any gunsmiths like that???.....................sonny

jwh1947

  • Guest
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2010, 12:11:41 AM »
Sure do, that's why we went to the range that afternoon and spent a few hours shooting the rifle. I do that with all customers, as I never know where their point-of-aim is relative to mine, and it saves us both time in the long run.  Wayne

keweenaw

  • Guest
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2010, 12:57:29 AM »
Without a pull gauge it can be hard to determine a weight.  A crisp trigger with no creep will seem much lighter than one that pulls at the same weight but is mushy.  If you're using one of Chambers produced and assembled Siler locks the tumbler and sear won't be soft nor will the sear spring need to be thinned to achieve a safe but acceptable pull with the proper trigger geometry.  The locks I've used recently have had pull weights of 2 1/2 to 3 lb as received.  I had one lock that I had to increase the weight of pull on as it was too light with a high pinned trigger.  Unless the single trigger geometry is correct you can't get an acceptable but safe pull.

What do I mean by a safe pull?  That means when the rifle is on full cock I should be able to strike the butt plate with my hand  or bump the butt on a rug on the floor without the hammer falling.  Any firearm that bump fires is unsafe and doesn't go out of the door of my shop on a hunting rifle.  It is difficult to achieve that level of safety on a flintlock with a single trigger with a pull under about 2 1/2 lb. but not all 2 1/2 lb. pulls will be safe.

So what's the order of work here?  1.  make sure the trigger geometry is appropriate - pinned high in the wood with the proper angle on the tail to engage the sear.  2.  Make sure the sear tail and the mating surface on the trigger tail are polished as smooth as possible.  3.  If the pull is too heavy stone the engagement notch on the tumbler and sear nose as needed.  This is much better done with a very smooth hard Arkansas knife stone than with a diamond hone as the amount of metal to be removed to correct the angle is minute with a Chambers assembled lock.  If 1,2, and 3 are done correctly one can achieve an acceptable and safe pull without touching the sear spring.  Without doing 1-3  you might get an light pull pull by thinning the sear spring but it will not be safe.  If you shorten the end of the sear spring by any distance at all in trying to thin it you will increase the weight of pull significantly.

One last comment of sear springs.  I've handled some original English locks, including some original John Manton locks.  Those guns have wonderful clean pulls at great weights.  The sear springs on those locks are incredibly stiff, far stiffer than the springs on a current Siler lock.  Moral of this story - IT'S NOT THE WEIGHT OF THE SEAR SPRING THAT IS IMPORTANT IN DETERMINING TRIGGER PULL.

Tom

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19331
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2010, 01:08:16 AM »
  Moral of this story - IT'S NOT THE WEIGHT OF THE SEAR SPRING THAT IS IMPORTANT IN DETERMINING TRIGGER PULL.

Tom

I agree 100% and have never messed with a sear spring to moderate a heavy pull.  Have always relocated the pivot point and polished things and got a crisp trigger with a decent pull.

Not that anybody wants a mushy trigger, but I think if 2 guns have the same light trigger pull and one has a shorter trigger travel, it is that one that will be more likely to go off by jarring, etc.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2010, 03:40:14 AM »
Rich,

You are talking about having more sear engagement when you talk about having a longer trigger pull, correct?  IOW, the full cock notch is higher from the center of the tumbler or the face of the sear has not had a noticeable relief angle put on it? 

Even on original M1816 - M1840 Flintlock Muskets and Civil War muskets I have almost never cut down a sear spring to get it close to the minimum weight of 3 lbs  in the case of Civil War Muskets.

Gus

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19331
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2010, 07:44:43 AM »
I think a longer trigger pull before release can be achieved through use of a deeper full cock notch or having the trigger pivot closer to the sear contact.  Either would give more creep or trigger travel before release.

I guess the point I am trying to make that any attempt to minimize trigger travel and trigger weight at the same time leads to a very sensitive trigger as far as accidental discharge is concerned.

I've never used a set trigger so am comfortable with pulls in the 4 lb range.
Andover, Vermont

jwh1947

  • Guest
Re: reducing trigger pull with siler locks
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2010, 08:19:21 AM »
The last 4 comments pretty much sum up my sentiments here. Regarding shooting, a comment for beginners; one thing became evident to me at about age 13. Everybody's sight picture and hold are different.  Take any gun and group it; give it to another experienced shooter capable of shooting tight groups.  I would always bet on the probability of them being substantially dissimilar.  This, to me, is of equal concern with pull weight and the primary reason I accompany the customer for initial sight in.  Only after we get it set up for him, do I stake the sights.  Just my way of doing things and another excuse to go shootin.'  I also take the opportunity to underscore safety issues.  To me, it is just good business.  JWH