Author Topic: Fowler Sight Picture  (Read 1781 times)

Offline Woodpecker

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Fowler Sight Picture
« on: August 10, 2025, 11:59:21 PM »
Today I got the 16g back out to the patterning board. It has consistently patterned about 12" low at 20 yards rendering it all but useless for anything but a conversation piece. I started stacking felt dots on the tang until the bead/blade was on target and on the felt. It took a whopping 3/8" of felt to center the pattern and actually see the target centered on the bead. Once centered it places good centered patterns at 20 yards.

Surely this wasn't acceptable or normal with 18th century originals? Even a modern cheap single barrel hits what the bead is on.





 

« Last Edit: August 11, 2025, 02:07:04 PM by Woodpecker »

Offline canadianml1

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2025, 02:25:31 AM »
Can you post the charge details /shot, powder and wadding please?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2025, 02:35:35 AM by canadianml1 »

Offline Woodpecker

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2025, 03:03:07 AM »
1oz scoop of Shuetzen 2F, cardboard, 1-1/8oz #5 or 7.5, cardboard. Primed with the same 2F.

Over the last year I've tested equal loads from 3/4oz to 1-1/8oz and all patterns were low. Tried priming with 3F too. Flintlocks are new to me and I've put this one over a rest to make sure I'm not flinching. Still low but the patterns are fine for cylinder bore.

It really has me puzzled that by design I'm looking at so much of the barrel above the tang. From the searches I've done it seems most are saying "they pointed, not aimed" or "keep your cheek high and build up the comb". Being a Kibler kit I wouldn't think the barrel is bent and I don't see anything wrong with the crown.

Offline alacran

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2025, 03:56:53 PM »
What is your experience with modern shotguns? What are you planning to shoot with this gun, turkeys quail? Are you patterning your loads standing, sitting or on a bench? Have you let someone else shoot your same loads out of this gun?
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Offline Bigmon

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2025, 06:15:02 PM »
is the barrel straight?

Offline Rmjchas

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2025, 06:49:10 PM »
Since the gun is consistently shooting low, it means the stock does not fit you.  If you were building from a blank, you could adjust the drop, pull, and pitch of the stock to put you on target.

But since that is not possible, the next thing to consider is bending the barrel.  It may sound a little scary, but it works perfectly well on both rifles and smoothbores that are way off target.  Do a search on barrel bending on the forum; there are lots of threads on how to do it.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2025, 07:48:43 PM »
Sounds to me you are aiming the gun as if the breech was a rear sight. 3/8" sounds about right, to me.
If shooting round ball loads, most guys sight their smoothies this way.
For shooting shot, you should see all of the barrel and be pointing the gun with both eyes open, not sighting as if shooting a rifle.imho
Daryl

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Offline whetrock

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2025, 08:02:39 PM »

You might want to make a rear sight out of card stock and tape it onto barrel with blue tape. Shoot it a few times and trim its height until it works well. Then practice your hold and sight picture, with it in place, until you have developed some muscle memory for the hold. You want to be able to bring it up with your eyes closed and be looking down the sights when you open them. When you have developed muscle memory for that, then take the paper sight off and try shooting without it.  Just a suggestion.

In the end, if you like sighting it like a rifle, of course it is possible to solder a rear sight in place.


Offline Woodpecker

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2025, 08:07:03 PM »
alacan, plenty of experience with modern shotguns and muzzleloading doubles. I hunt squirrel, rabbit, dove, and turkey. Also shoot clays all year. Not at clubs but woods walks and regular throwers. So I prefer an all around 50/50 pattern. This is just my first flintlock muzzleloader. I'll admit I got excited to complete this kit and went strait to clays and missed every one. Next I put a clay on a log and watched the leaves dust up on the ground so I went to the rest to see the POI low and honestly set it aside for a bit.

Bigmon, starting to wonder that.

Rmjchas, prior to stock fit for POA alignment for the eyes, the shot pattern needs to be correct along the rib to start with. Similar to regulating doubles before you ever fit the stock to the shooter. That's where I'm at though it's just a single barrel which leads me to believe that either the barrel is bent of otherwise flawed.

Daryl, correct, I'm using the tang as though it is the rib.

Let me better articulate my challenge.

Whenever I acquire a shotgun I first check for POI. I do this with a rest, bead center of target area, eye down rib, bead resting on rib. I take 3 shots and examine the POI. Very similar to the picture below with a 50/50 to 60/40 above/below and equal side to side.

 


Once POI is verified, I work on density via the usual powder, shot, and wad combinations. While this may change POI slightly, it’s never drastic enough to alter it.

Next is POA where the stock is looked at to align my eye with the sight picture. I’ve never had to adjust one being of average height. Maybe a minor adjustment on my part. 

From Greener page 419, “Fling up the gun quickly whilst looking steadily at the mark, and immediately the gun is at the shoulder close the left eye, and glance along the rib; the sight on the muzzle should cover the object at which the shooter was looking as he brought up the gun; If upon this maneuver being repeated several times, it is found that the gun each time covers the mark at which it is aimed, it should be tried in like manner at other marks at different distances and elevations. If these marks are covered in the same manner, the gun may be considered a fit, and a little practice will make the shooter quite at home with the weapon. It should then be tried at a target. Take a few snap shots at a bull's eye, and if the shots are not placed central, something is wrong with either the gun or the shooter. If a man can not every time hit a fixed mark at thirty to forty yards every tie with a shot gun he cannot expect to hit birds on the wing.”

My challenge here is with POI being around a foot low at 20 yards there really is no point in considering stock adjustment or fit for POA. I doubt a rifleman would move a rifle sight 3/8” to the left to correct windage or add a 3/8” block to adjust elevation and consider that normal.

Question is, are there any flintlock fowler wingshooters out there (original or reproduction) that can confirm the POI is correct on theirs using shot? Or were all fowlers prior to regulated doubles just smoothrifles without a rear site?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2025, 02:50:33 AM »
Bend the barrel.
My FIELD double 12 hits perfectly for me. I am no where near looking down the rib, but well above it.
For you, it would be shooting VERY high.
For me, it wins clay shooting events.
Daryl

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Offline Bill in Md

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2025, 04:27:15 AM »
Just for giggles, get ahold of some bald faced hornet nest. Not wasp, but hornet.....Load your powder, stuff a good thick pinch of nesting on it, add your shot and top it off with enough nest to hold the shot.....Can't see a Kibler barrel being in need of bending and it sounds like you know how to shoot.....I wouldn't use card board or felt in a smooth barrel for all the tea in China
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2025, 01:11:38 PM »
You are going to need to bend the barrel to sight down the top of the breech like that and get the impact you desire. The other alternative would be to pad your comb to raise your eye higher above the barrel. Do you have a barrel rib on your modern gun?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2025, 01:21:13 PM by James Rogers »

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2025, 03:20:40 PM »
What Daryl says in post # 6 above.

You look Over the barrel, and just use  the bead as a reference.
Seeing the length of the barrel in a consistent manner automatically gives you the elevation you need.

Offline foresterdj

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2025, 05:27:45 PM »
But if your head is too high you lose cheek weld to the stock and your eye, the rear sight, could be anywhere. Cheek must be firm and consistant on stock to ever get good results. So if the gun fit now, with cheek tight on stock, puts line of sight right over tang to front bead, and you are always low, then stock fit is not correct for you.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2025, 09:40:37 PM »
What Daryl says in post # 6 above.

You look Over the barrel, and just use  the bead as a reference.
Seeing the length of the barrel in a consistent manner automatically gives you the elevation you need.
Exactly.  If you sight down the barrel, you will shoot low. Much like taking a rifle, and filing down the rear sight to almost nothing...you will hit low.  Learn to adjust your sight picture, and you'll be fine

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2025, 12:47:14 AM »
I think the issue is that the original poster has a decent amount of experience and success in shooting clay birds and patterning with modern guns, and doesn’t have to think about altering how he mounts the gun or sights it when he shoots those guns. When he shoots his flintlock, he’s shooting low while mounting and pointing in a way that is successful for him with other guns.

If he wasn’t shooting off a bench I’d suggest he’s dropping the gun from initial point of aim before it fires, because he’s not used to flintlock lock times. As we sometimes experience with a hang fire. I don’t think altering his natural and experienced clay shooting style to fit this gun is going to be his best approach. Just my thoughts.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bill in Md

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2025, 02:24:09 AM »
But if he is dropping the gun would that not have the pattern all over the place and not just dead low?....A barrel bent so much that it hits a foot low at 20 yards does not add up.....To the OP....have you tried shooting a patched ball to see if it also shoots low???....I would try every possible variation in powder, charge and wadding before getting into major changes with the barrel....Process of elimination
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Offline Woodpecker

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2025, 02:57:38 AM »
Thank you all for the ideas.

My modern shotguns have either a rib or a receiver with a flat or raised arch, so all are elevating to a degree. I've spent a good bit of time today closing eyes, mounting, and opening to see the sight picture. All generally have the same picture even though some have beads and other blades, ribs and no ribs.

Maybe my assumption was incorrect that the flats on the fowler were high enough (by design) to accomplish the same sight picture. I did the same exercise with it and every time I open my eyes I'm looking close to the bead on my 3/8" shim. Pulling a string tight from the muzzle to the shim it's about 1/8" rise for every 14" or so. Considering this barrel is so much longer than my others it may be amplifying the problem by 1/3 or more. That's way more barrel profile than I'm used to seeing. I'd be concerned that bending the barrel enough to remedy would be visibly apparent.

I can definitely understand why so many are putting rear sights on fowlers. Even if it's installed for round ball it would serve as a raised rib with shot.

I could shorten the barrel 12" to make it lighter and that would resolve 1/8" or so of the height, or fashion a cherry rib about 6" long and 3/8" high to mount on the flats (or both). I would think a couple of hidden rare earth magnets would hold it solid so it's removable, yet useful.

I read one reference that sanding the inside of the barrel crown on one side would help direct the shot. Similar to an eccentric choke. Anyone ever tried it or have any reference material?

 

Offline Woodpecker

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2025, 03:07:34 AM »
But if he is dropping the gun would that not have the pattern all over the place and not just dead low?....A barrel bent so much that it hits a foot low at 20 yards does not add up.....To the OP....have you tried shooting a patched ball to see if it also shoots low???....I would try every possible variation in powder, charge and wadding before getting into major changes with the barrel....Process of elimination

Have not tried round ball and would have to order them. Might try a paper shot slug next time I'm at the paper. Should work fine for 20 yard POI.

Offline Woodpecker

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2025, 12:13:18 PM »
Back to the original question I had, is the general consensus that this sight picture is normal? If you took your smoothbore musket, fowler, etc out at 20 yards and did the same exercise from a rest you would all be low with shot or would you have a 50/50 pattern?

Looking at the video Kibler published of original fowlers at 19:32 and 26:42 it shows what appears to be a raised area on the breech with a sight groove cut in both. Would this not illustrate that it would have a normal sight picture looking across the flat? Neither appear to require a 3/8" raised rear sight.

 

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2025, 01:56:55 PM »
Mine font pattern low. If anything they pattern a bit high. Because the breeches are thicker than the muzzles on my fowlers and trade guns, the line of sight if I look straight down the barrel is below the line of the bore.
Andover, Vermont

Offline whetrock

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2025, 03:42:50 PM »
Looking at the video Kibler published of original fowlers at 19:32 and 26:42 it shows what appears to be a raised area on the breech with a sight groove cut in both. Would this not illustrate that it would have a normal sight picture looking across the flat? Neither appear to require a 3/8" raised rear sight.

I'm in no way an expert here, but my understanding regarding the sight grooves on fowlers is that they were designed for quick horizontal alignment (windage), rather than for careful vertical alignment (elevation). That's to say that they were not designed to be aligned vertically like a "V" notch in a rear sight.  Perhaps some experts can comment on this?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2025, 04:05:40 PM »
Mine don’t pattern low. If anything they pattern a bit high. Because the breeches are thicker than the muzzles on my fowlers and trade guns, the line of sight if I look straight down the barrel is below the line of the bore.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Woodpecker

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2025, 05:36:29 PM »
Mine don’t pattern low. If anything they pattern a bit high. Because the breeches are thicker than the muzzles on my fowlers and trade guns, the line of sight if I look straight down the barrel is below the line of the bore.

This is what makes sense to me. Let's talk about strait lines.

The Kibler 16ga barrel I have measures 1.13OD at the breech and .835 at the muzzle. Leaving the math to the side, for a 44 in barrel I'm showing a sight slope of .12" per yard.

The Kibler sight picture should cross the centerline in 3.46 yards. Beyond that the sight picture should be below centerline.
At 10 yards the Kibler sight picture should be -0.79" from centerline.
At 20 yards the Kibler sight picture should be -2.00" from centerline.
At 30 yards the Kibler sight picture should be -3.20" from centerline.
At 1000 fps a #7.5 lead pellet falls 2.5" at 30 yards.

Wouldn't that mean that the theoretical single #7.5 lead pellet should hit (center of a pattern) at .7" above the sight line?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2025, 02:46:07 AM by Woodpecker »

Offline duca

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Re: Fowler Sight Picture
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2025, 05:42:29 PM »
To the original post, if I overlooked what was the powder charge you used?
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