ramrods with metal tips on both ends-hurt accuracy???

[Dave K]

I never found any difference with metal tips or no tips on the end of the ramrods. They both shot very inaccurate.    Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[Leatherbelly]

 Dave,Dave, unless you have an unlimited supply of ramrods,tipped or not, I truly believe you! The one I shot was terribly inaccurate.

[Roger Fisher]

Dave,Dave, unless you have an unlimited supply of ramrods,tipped or not, I truly believe you! The one I shot was terribly inaccurate.

Oh yeah:  I know of one member here that proved how inaccurate they are. We had a good tracking snow and tracked down all three pieces although they were quite short.   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I would be really interested to hear from a champion, for example, a chunk shooting champion, about their procedures and methods of shooting a match - loading, cleaning, shooting - everything.  We here in Prince George, BC, are fundamentally simple...we carry on target shooting just like we do when we're hunting, loading from the pouch and horn, and using the ramrod that accompanies the rifle.  I suspect that that is not the way to get into the winner's circle at say, Friendship.  Is there anyone in the ALR family that can shed some light on this?

[sonny]

rodger..........i can't afford muzzblast mag so please read it for me...thanks.sonny

[sonny]

daryl........how the heck do you shoot all day when a baked on coat that slowly thickens after each shot makes it impossable after 5 shots???....no way!!!.......what the heck am i doing wrong...........sonny

[California Kid]

Your patch and ball combo is wrong or your lube isn't working. Can shoot all day with just spit.

[Roger Fisher]

Hey Sonny:  I shoot all day w/o any seperate cleaning patch 'tween' shots and $#*! I'm running out       (of spit).   Key word here is "seperate" 

[Daryl]

Sonny- watch Taylor's video, with the Virginia. When we 'made' that video, we'd been shooting targets for about 2 hours, probably 25 or more shots each - load testing.

He's using a .495" ball and a .022" denim patch. A nice smoothy finished crown allows the tight combination to swage into the rifling, giving a tight fit to the bottoms of the grooves. As you seat the patched ball,  it wipes the fouling of the previous shot from the bore.  There is no buildup, shot to shot, therefore loading is as easy as the first one.

As to lube, it really doesn't matter a great deal, as spit or windshield washer fluid or mink oil, or neetsfoot oil all work just fine. I prefer a 'wet', watehr based lube for trail walks as the hands don't get greasy.

A problem I've seen some have, is not using enough lube - whatever it is. When using spit, the patch has to be WET, not just licked. When you smack it down flush with the muzzle, it should splash a bit. ((I don't stand any where near Taylor when he's loading -HA!) No, it won't hurt the powder charge enough to make any difference on target or with velocity.  When I say wet, I mean as you would get from lightly squeezed, not compressing the patch to get as much moisture out as possible.

The patch has to be wet enough to wipe the bore clean when loading, and to depost a bit of moisture on the bore so that shot's fouling doesn't get hard and dry.  Some people use a proper combination, but can't load easily over and over due to not using enough lube.

[sonny]

i use oxyoke 1000 wonder patches  an a 530.rb............is there not enough lube on factory relube wonderpatches?...............sonny

[Daryl]

 
If you have fouling buildup, the patch is too thin or ball too small with that particular patch, to seal.  If the ball/patch combination doesn't seal, you'll get a buildup of fouling. If you get a buildup of fouling, you need to change something.  By the way, a .535" ball will show better accuracy thna a smaller ball.  The ball and patch combination must be tight enough to seal.  In order to load such a combination, you'll probably have to round the corners of your crown, slightly.  A smooth crown allows very tight combinations to be loaded, easily.

Note Taylor is using a .022" patch with a .495" ball in his .50 Rice barrel.  In that barrel, we used the .019" drill patch I used in my .40, withover size balls.  In his rifle, that thinner, .019" patch was easily loaded with a 3/8" rod & without cutting the patch, using a .508" ball, .008" oversize.

 Lube 1,000, which is pretty much chap-stick apparently, works too - that's just about all Round Ball uses & he doesn't have to wipe.  A lot also depends on rifling depth with patch thickness, however I used to shoot a .022" denim patch with a .495" ball in a TC.50 with buttoned rifling.

  I've tested pre-lubed patches with 1000, and found no loading problems, but prefer something like Track's mink oil for hunting - few shots and a tub lasts a long time.  Pre-lubed patches are prohibitively expensive to purchase - as in, about $8.00 or more per hundred, here.  That's ridiculous.  For targets, I use a water-based lube as there is never more than 5 min. between shots. Windshield washer fluid is under $4,00 per gallon which lasts for thousands of shots. A squirt of soap, or neetsfoot oil slows evapouration.  Lubed patches in a tin stay wet for a week of more, up here in the winter and for a couple days in hot weather.  It is simple to re-wet them.

[roundball]

My experiences, at least using Goex here in North Carolina, have taught me that "moisture" is the key to continuous shooting without wiping between shots.

Natural Lube 1000 has been a very good lube for me to shoot without wiping between shots...BUT...that's ONLY during the high humidity months here in NC when its so humid the pan turns glistening wet in 30 seconds...the bore is doing the same thing sucking in that wet air...and of course the next PRB just wipes it off the bore walls as everybody knows.

But Natural Lube 1000 is not wet enough to do that year round here...during the dry, low humidity months of winter here I have to switch to the wetter, semi-liquid Hoppe's PLUS lube and I can keep on shooting

[sonny]

roundball..........when hunting with hoppes,do you use a loading block??where do you keep the wet hoppes patches between shots??? tin??patchbox?? do you just use for target shooting??I have to use a bullet starter with my 54cal cal getz barrel with 530 ball .020 oxyoke 1000 patch.I get  a quarted size group at fifty with it.If i go with a 535. ball i am going to have to do some serious barrel crown rounding an short starter pounding to get that combo down....Is your patches wet/moist or dry lube with watersoluable oil/water home batch???.......sonny

[roundball]

I only use Hoppe's with 40-50 shot range sessions to shoot without wiping between shots.

For the hunting I do, patches prelubed with Natural Lube 1000 are fine for me so there's no bother carrying wet patches.

The only type hunting I try to do where I might want to shoot multiple shots without wiping is the occasional chance at some doves with a smoothbore...and when I do that it's around labor day where there's still pretty good humidity, and I use Circle Fly prelubed wads which keep fouling soft.

[WaterFowl]

Sonny..one point not mentioned was the use of a bore or muzzle protector to save the wear on your crown with the wooden rod..I use brass  others use plastic  protectors this goes a long way in prevent crown wear. Most have one on the short starter as well. I use Hoppe's black powder solvent and lube above 25 degrees..below... some home brews-,mink oil. bear grease, bear oil, deer tallow, moose tallow ,olive oil some mixed with bee's wax....I also shoot with a wet patch. hunt with an over powder card or wad...  not needed while target shooting ...Dan

[Daryl]

Sonny - your ball and patch combo measures out, without any compression of the cloth by the lands at .570". The typical rounded bottomed barrel measures .572". So- the fit is too loose and is why you are getting fouling buildup, shot to shot.  I find if the combination meaures about .010" larger than the groove to groove dimension, ie: .005" compression per side, the combination has a chance of sealing. Undersize willnever seal.

Perhaps you should try a wad if unable to load a tighter combination.

As to humidity, I wasn't aware the waxes, ie: lube 1000 failed in dryer humidity.  At Hefley, the humidity runs from about 6% to 80% and we don't have any problems with fouling buildup while shooting.  Hefley trails are usually only about 25 shots max, including fouling/practise shots.

[roundball]

I wasn't aware the waxes, ie: lube 1000 failed in dryer humidity. 

To be clear, I never made or even implied such a generalized statement.

The context of my posts was about shooting many shots during range sessions without wiping between shots and I found that NL1000 did fine for me in higher humiditiy conditions...not so well during lower humidity conditions because its not a wet lube...causing me to prefer a wetter lube like Hoppes PLUS BP during the drier low humidity air of winter here in NC.

The store bought pre-cut/pre-lubed patches don't seem to have any surplus lube in them for sure...if patches are lubed locally they may have more lube in them than a store bought patch.

Once the humidity gets low here I open a bag of pre-cut/pre-lubed patches, squeeze in a couple squirts of Hoppes, squish it around to get the patches glistening wet and usually run off a 50 shot range session...sometimes 40 if I'm shooting full power hunting loads, sometime 75 if I'm shooting powderpuff 50-60grn target loads

[Daryl]

My experiences, at least using Goex here in North Carolina, have taught me that "moisture" is the key to continuous shooting without wiping between shots.

Natural Lube 1000 has been a very good lube for me to shoot without wiping between shots...BUT...that's ONLY during the high humidity months here in NC when its so humid the pan turns glistening wet in 30 seconds


But Natural Lube 1000 is not wet enough to do that year round here...during the dry, low humidity months of winter here I have to switch to the wetter, semi-liquid Hoppe's PLUS lube and I can keep on shooting

I only use Hoppe's with 40-50 shot range sessions to shoot without wiping between shots.

Oh - guess I misunderstood your implication that 100 didn't allow you continual shooting during dry times - which I call failure to allow shooting without wiping during dry times.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Daryl,

I am very curious to read your understanding of a "well crowned" muzzle.

I have invented my own way of indefinite loading without swabbing.  But I don't think I could manage 85 shots in one hour of woods walking.

See, my method is to use a thicker-than-caliber ball block.  Usually made from a 3/4" this wooden plank.  Because the block is thicker-than-caliber, I can load the block just as if I were cutting the patches at the muzzle.  I then flip the block over and fill the back cavity flush with tallow. 

This tallow then serves as a "grease cookie" or wad between the powder and patched ball.  I believe it minimizes blow-by, but it also greases the bore really well. 

I've never had to swab between shots although I have noticed it takes a number of shots for the bore fouling to reach a "steady state".

While my method works, I can't see myself carrying 85 shots in planks of wood. 

Starting is also something I dislike.  I've seen some folks just push the ball in with their thumb.  I've never had an accurate ball/patch combination that I could thumb start. 

[roundball]

[
Oh - guess I misunderstood your implication that 100 didn't allow you continual shooting during dry times - which I call failure to allow shooting without wiping during dry times.

Yes, you misunderstood...drew an incorrect conclusion.

[Daryl]

RB - your words - "Natural Lube 1000 has been a very good lube for me to shoot without wiping between shots.. .BUT...that's ONLY during the high humidity months here in NC when its so humid the pan turns glistening wet in 30 seconds "

 
Sorry for bringing this back - but what other conclusion could I have drawn, but that the lube 1000 didn't allow continuous loading in low humidity?

BJJ - I would assume a lot of lube, such as your block loading would allow continuous shooting with loads that otherwise might foul.  We do a similar tactic in BP ctgs. guns when shotoing paper patched bullets.  Shot 'bare' the bore must be wiped every shot.  This is not acceptable for me for hunting, nor is it acceptable at the range - for me- my preference.   A lube disk of about 1/8" thick using a good BP lubelaoded against the powder, with a thin film of wax paper separating powder from lube. The powder gas/flame melts the lube, which mixes with the fouling, and appears to coat the fouling in the bore, keeping it soft and allowing many shots with undiminished accuracy before wiping is necessary - usually 10 to 20 shots are capable of sustained accuracy. If a paper card wad is used, the lube doesn't mix with the flame and the bore fouls making it difficult to load successive rounds. Loaded with wads on each side of the lube disk, you can even sometimes find the lube disk between the card wads laying on the ground between 75 and 100 yards away.  The wax pape disk is to prevent the lube from spoiling part of the charge.  It might be an idea with your block method.

We load from the bag, using re-cut patches from a small tin, like a 'Sucrets' box, wet with a water based solution.  We shoot for 3 or 5 hours and will run upwards of 85 shots on some days.  Here is the crown on my .69. It shows the rounded, smooth transition from deeper than groove diameter, to the top of the lands, which no longer have the corner that is cut with a lathe.  I'd call this well-crowned. The patch and ball swages into the bore, and perfectly seals the powder gases behind it.  I use a .684" ball with a .025" (mic'd) patch. The patches run .030" with squeezing caliper tines onto the material. The rifling is .012" deep.  Loads nicely, but needs a good whack with the palm on the starter's knob to seat flush.  After that, it goes down easily. The same patch works well with a 15 bore ball, smaller at .675" in diameter, pure or wheel weight alloy works equally well, but the larger pure lead ball is more accurate so that's what's used for serious target work.



Here's the muzzle of the .32 with it's really wide lands and narrow grooves - opposite what I'd prefer, but with a .311"ball and .0215" patch, it shoots well.  The wide lands displace lead and help the patch to fill tightly into the grooves, sealing just fine.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Very good.

Your crown almost looks like it got that way from years of loading patches.  Or was this ground in.  Typically a new barrel has a crown with crisp edges.

That's how I would describe my Colerain crown.

Oh.  BTW, I don't use a short starter.  I find that with leather gloves and simply gripping the ramrod close to the end I can start it without a T-handled short starter.  (one less thing in the bag is good). 

I might try the waxed paper idea.  Generally speaking though, when I'm hunting the tallow lube is nowhere close to liquid - so I don't worry about it contaminating the charge.  At the range, the charge just doesn't sit in the bore long enough to worry about.  Now if I was hunting in warm climates that might be another story.  I have found that pure deer tallow just gets too hard to load in freezing temps.  I cut it with some Crisco.

I will be playing with paper cartridges more.  I have tried them and am very pleased.  I even found that I can give the ball a twist to form a "wasp waste" between the ball and powder charge.  I can then rub this shoulder across a hunk of tallow which fills in the shoulder.  This seems to serve adequately as the "grease cookie" in my ball block.   The cartridges then can be stored in a wooden block w/ holes drilled in (I'd need a big piece o' lumber for 85 shots though. 

Dang now that I think about it.  85 shots is a lot to lug around.  That's 4 lbs of ammo!  Just for a .54 caliber shooting 100 grain charges.  Egads.  I can't imagine luggin 85 .69 caliber loads around for 5 hours.

Or do you just carry some loads with you, go back refill the shootin' bag, and so forth?

[Daryl]

5.6 pounds of balls (with the 15 bore balls or 5.9 pounds with the 14 1/2's + 1 1/2 pounds of powder + patch tin and patches, + cappers + moose antler or Ash knobed short starter.  My bag has a wide shoulder strap almost 3" - don't even notice it - after a while.  1/2 way thorugh, the bag and the horn only has 2.8 pounds and 3/4 pounds in them - HA!

There is no wear - the crowns were made that way by me.  I use the end of my thumb pushing the emery into the bore, then rotate my thumb, turning the barrel every now and then.  The factory machine crown has sharp edges that would cut the ball/patch combinations I use.  They also rivet up lead around the circumference, instead of allowing the smooth swaging into the lands and grooves like the smooth crown facilitates. 

Yes- I can seat them without a starter, but that much steady pressure is hard on the wrist of the stock. Next time you do that, have a look at the wrist. If the rifle is a slim Penn. rifle, you'll see it flexing with a snug load. By snug load, I'm talkign about a .020" or thicker patch and a ball that's only .005" under bore size.

I prefer the stud with smack on the starter and a smack of the palm, or for hunting, holding the starter as in the video and a light tap seats the ball flush. Antoher small smack and it"s down 6".  From there, it's easy going. without harm to the rod. It's faster with the starter and plenty easy to do - becomes habbit as you can see in the videos. Using the stud doesn't damage the ball at all, as proven on targets.