AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on June 22, 2023, 09:48:40 PM
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A preview of a new product we'll begin taking orders for tomorrow. More complete descriptions to come...
(https://i.ibb.co/q5p2TL4/IMG-2958.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9tWdQmf)
(https://i.ibb.co/pzZ1mRR/IMG-1766.jpg) (https://ibb.co/swQgB66)
(https://i.ibb.co/yfgqr8b/IMG-2955.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xCz6NMR)
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I’ve got it figured out. :)
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I just put all my chisels away. I’ll be on the phone to Ohio tomorrow.
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Nifty. Now I can quit teaching carving.
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Nifty. Now I can quit teaching carving.
Mike, I’m not really giving up yet. But I still haven’t received the DVD and CD’s I ordered, guess everyone was at Friendship but me.
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A continuation of innovation and use of technology applied towards the "old" firearms. Many of us were wondering when this would occur and were anticipating that it would come out of Hanover, Ohio. Looking forward to seeing the actual information tomorrow. Good job, Jim Kibler!
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Nifty. Now I can quit teaching carving.
I remember a few years ago, you made some prediction about us carving stocks. At the time, I didn't think we would be doing it. I'm going to have to get with you so I can figure out what we should expect here in the future!
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Is that carving by CNC??? It's not HC, but @!*% sure is pretty!
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As long as I don’t see a CNC copy of the Original Masters work I will not complain.
Your kits offer an incredible opportunity to persevere the culture… hopefully CNC rifles do not push out the traditional builders in the future.
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Actually I’ve been considering making a Beck kit complete with carving. Whatcha think!
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You already know my opinion. You’ll do as you please chasing the dollar. I’d ask you to honor the traditions and make your own rifles😏
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How many different carving patterns will be available?
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Is that carving by CNC??? It's not HC, but @!*% sure is pretty!
Yup, CNC cut incised carving. Glad you like it!
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How many different carving patterns will be available?
I have a few options in mind. A simpler heavily relief carved example is one. Another involves some silver. It all takes time, though. Thanks
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"You already know my opinion. You’ll do as you please chasing the dollar. I’d ask you to honor the traditions and make your own rifles"
I hope this was said tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Kibler can build carve and engrave fantastic longrifles when business is not calling him away. The two Colonial "kits" he had carved and finished at CLA were stunning. Since Jim produced every part of those two, I wouldn't call them kits, just "Jim Kibler rifles".
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Is that carving by CNC??? It's not HC, but @!*% sure is pretty!
Check out some of John Noll’s incised carving work. This is more sophisticated and detailed, but the approaches used share some similarities as well.
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This should fire up some lively discussion on both sides of the coin.
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Shaking things up is a key part of a successful business! For or against, people talking is good. Irrelevance is a killer.
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Jim, your kits and innovations give all BP enthusiast a chance to own and shoot a quality muzzleloader. As the years ahead pass I believe what your doing will only preserve and not distract from the traditional aspect of building. I believe there will always be a market for more advanced kits and blank builds, and I would imagine many of those pursuing that path will have started with one of your kits. As for me, I’ve posted my entry into relief carving, and I will continue to work toward some level of competence, but I will still be on the phone to talk to Bree in the morning.
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Jim,
I love what your are doing. I’m also of two minds about it, but as long as it brings in new folks and gets people on a gun building mindset, I’m all for it. In fact, I’ve built two of your kits and am thinking about a third in-between all my builds from a blank.
If you have a minute to read, I’d like to relay a story from 40 years ago that I think has parallels with what you are doing. it will seem entirely off-base at first, but bear with me.
I’ve played drums all my life, from age about 12 or so. In the eighties, it was all about drum machines. I was all about real drums and Heavy Metal. I went to a workshop in a recording studio and the fella was displaying the newest thing in electronic drums: The Simmons drum machine. You could play it, or program it.
He programmed a nice beat and set it to play for us. It was perfect. Everything on perfect time and perfect consistency. Grand. It sounded frankly awful and awkward. Absolutely no feel and no heart. That was the techno music of the eighties. He acknowledged that it did not sound right.
He then turned the magic dial: The Error Dial. You could introduce fractional errors in timing and consistency of the drum impacts. It made the world of difference. Just a slight bit of error made it groove. It “felt” like a real drummer because no one is perfect. That error does not need to be significant. Once he went a few percentage points or so, it was horrible.
Your CNC carving looks great. But to me, it looks like the Simmons drum machine on 0% error.
I’m in no position to criticize your work. Wallace Gussler told me you took his carving class and could have tought it after about 2 days. I’m not that guy.
Just looking and thinking……. Throw some error in there please sir.
Respectfully,
Norm
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I have to agree with chowmi. I can see the appeal to someone who does not want to attempt carving. But it is very obviously carved by a computer.
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Ahhh, now the detractors that want to question its merit since it is too precise and lacks “heart or soul”. I recall this being an argument with our kits a few years ago, but that has thankfully simmered down. Though well meaning in many cases, I think it’s often a response to a threat. Take away the knowledge of how it’s made and the reaction will oftentimes be much different.
Everyone can have their preferences as far as how precise or refined something is made. I like the spectrum of approaches, but I believe good design needs to be present in either. What I do know how to do is make something with appeal to a wide variety of people. I have my own style and approach that has worked. I could have hand carved this just the same and been pleased with it. Generally if I’m pleased with my work, others will be too😉.
Honestly, when I look at much of the carving being done today, sometimes from those quick to judge, I’m not all too impressed. There’s often far bigger issues than how finely or precisely it is made! At least in my view… Carving is a very difficult skill to learn and master. Expecting someone who assembles a kit to pull it off isn’t reasonable.
I’ll be finishing out a gun here soon and then you can judge it then. You can tell me if it has appeal or not😉
Thanks for the nice post, Chowmi. I didn’t take offense at all and know it all comes from a good place.
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As long as I don’t see a CNC copy of the Original Masters work I will not complain.
They'd probably make great study pieces. I'd love to have CNC facsimiles of originals to toss around my shop, wouldn't even need the hardware.
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Nice Pedersoli!
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Naysayers always provide amusement. Always.
I responded to a different post which essentially stated if you buy a Kibler, your rifle will be the same as hundreds\thousands of other Kiblers. Not long after that thread, this one https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=77072.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=77072.0) appeared showing the exact same rifles built....but the results are completely different.
There are not a lot of individuals who can do good carvings. Even less that can do amazing carvings. But let's keep in mind that all builds are modeled after "the originals". They are not new and unique, they are replicas. Or, as my former business partner would say...."Monkey see, monkey do." (Yes, harsh...but not far from the truth.)
So, now you, as a buyer, have more choices. You can leave it alone as Jim has produced it. You can expand upon it knowing "big mistakes" will be out of the way. You can "round" the edge's, combine the lines, lengthen the carvings (please Jim....don't come out with a version where one could shorten the lines!!). The buyer, like in the above referenced "two exact builds" threads has options. And why is that a bad thing?
Why can't I buy, own, shoot a rifle that is not only functional, but really appealing to the eye? Why can't I have a rifle where I see it as cost efficient and time efficient yet still far more attractive than a Leman build?
And I can change it, leave it alone, or paint it pink if that's what I want. There are Pedersoli's, and there are https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=77097.msg764596#new (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=77097.msg764596#new) Pedersoli's.
Shake it up Jim! Provide individuals with options! I see no downside to this product option offerings!!
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Jim, I appreciate your ability to look ahead and to offer a carved rifle. Whether CNC or by your hand. I’m very impressed with your innovative ideas. I see so many of your Colonials assembled without carving or engraving. Keep offering new products. Your work is much appreciated. I have built several rifles. I look forward to your current and future offerings. Best of luck in the success of your much needed business. Jerry
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My o my cnc has really come along way since my days in the furniture industry.
Very interesting, and can’t wait to see the end result
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I think a CNC'd Beck with carving is a great idea. Would save me a lot of work. IMO Kibler's kit has been a shot in the arm for the muzzleloading community. Now everyone can have a nice looking gun to shoot. Hopefully all of those horrendous things that were brought to shoots in the past can be put in the back of the closet and stay there. Now, get busy on that 16 bore fowling gun, I have a piece of english walnut in storage for the past 20 years for this project. Do you want my drop and pull so you can design the kit around my needs? ;)
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So let me be blunt to the naysayers... If you feel threatened by the process behind this, that's fine and understandable. Please though don't confuse the process with results. Let me say, there are few stocks carved today that have equal or more merit to this. That is, merit based on what it is; design, aesthetics execution etc. I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back, but rather stating what I believe to be the truth. Most carving I see has some pretty serious issues. Period. Maybe some don't have the ability to discern the difference...
So for someone who wants a carved longrifle with extremely high quality, this is available at a very affordable price and in a very timely fashion.
Based on feedback I feel pretty certain you'll be seeing lots of it in the future ;) I'll be putting together a post about more details soon.
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Hi,
I was sure Jim would develop this level of machine manufacture. It is very impressive and will be a great boon to those who do not possess the skills or desire to possess the skills required for good carving and design. They can still own and shoot a well decorated gun. The design part ought to be a good application for AI because you could train the software using the best modern and original work, and then have it design the carving on the guns each time differently making each gun unique.
dave
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I rarely inject my thoughts and opinions into the "Gun Building" topics, mainly because I'm a lousy and impatient builder. I very much like these kits and this feature, especially for someone who wants to build one personal rifle that they will use and enjoy. It certainly lack the merit of the rifles built from a plank and hand worked. Its a KIT, nothing more, and a great way to ease into the pleasure of traditional shooting, and possible give someone the courage to actually build a rifle. Reminds me the "snap together" airplane models of my youth. I was always proud of the outcome until a say the painstakingly built old time balsa wood airplanes my father build from detailed old school plans.....
I ordered one of the Southern Rifle kits when they first came out, mainly to support Jim. It had one of the 46 inch long barrels. I wouldn't have purchased the shorter one. I assembled it in a few days. I added no embellishment. I have the original Whitson rifle Jim used to support the design of the kit, so it was fun to have a shooting version. I've enjoyed it very much and gave it to one of my sons who is proud to have a rifle his "dad built". He uses is and not it looks similar to the original with wear and signs of frequent use. I would purchase another kit from Jim, if it had the 46 inch barrel in a .32 to .45 caliber and a few "custom" options, such as double set triggers, different guard options, and carving.
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I have to agree with chowmi. I can see the appeal to someone who does not want to attempt carving. But it is very obviously carved by a computer.
From my phone, I can't tell it from something Jim hand carved ; ) looks like his style and precision to a "T"
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This sort of innovation is more likely to add to demand rather than diminish it. There will still be collectors who want custom - built and decorated rifles, and there will still be builders who like to do the work themselves and want to learn, focusing on the process rather than the end result (I count myself in that category). From my point of view, this sort of kit doesn't take away from the people who are already buying custom rifles or various kits, but adds a new market of folks who may then want to take that next step (how many people on here started with a kit of some sort and then said, hey I'd like to try something a little more involved?). It may take away from folks who would have bought a lesser - quality finished rifle (my CVA that I built as a high schooler looks like a toy to me now, and a friend with a TC is thinking he needs to upgrade after seeing my Colonial in the woods last fall) who never really wanted to be builders. It may also push other kit offerings to step up their game. More importantly, it may mean more folks shooting black powder, which gives manufacturers a bigger market to sell to, and that can also be good for all of us.
I've built three Kiblers at this point (one of each model) and I love them all, but I have also tried to "make them my own," for better or for worse. I've also built one from a plank, and it has it's imperfections but I've definitely feel more pride about that one and intend to do more. Will I buy a kit with CNC carving? Probably not - I like struggling with it on my own. But that's fine. I have other avenues and they aren't going to go away.
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Innovative application of CNC technology.
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As a long time CNC guy I can appreciate the time and effort that went into this. The modeling, programming, prove out and optimization on display is impressive.
Jim, check out 'runner cutters', typically used in plastic injection molds, they could add some freedom that balls don't and they are hella strong compared to balls.
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Technology is amazing, I think to myself, as I scratch away on a cow horn with a pointy nail 🥹
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Great! one less thing for people to learn!
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The Kibler kits have mad it possible for someone who has limited rifle making time and skills or TOOLS like me to have a long rifle.
I prefer the fence post plain and simple Southern long rifles and have wondered why the carved ones were made when they took way too much time.I commented to Jud Brennan after handling one of his carved guns about being able to make 6 finished but plain rifles and he said "More than 6".This was at the CLA show several years ago.The Kibler and Chambers late Ketland locks are at the top of the stack and
I still think a half stock English sporting rifle with a late Ketland from either maker would be a welcome addition to our peculiar group.
Bob Roller
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I am so impressed with what Jim has done in such a short time frame. Taking a risk on building a business, from scratch, on a gun using modern cnc technology, and then taking it to this level. I would love to understand what it takes, and the process, to go from his mind to the final product. Ya or nay to the final product, we should all appreciate and applaud what has been accomplished and how it has woke up people to the ML sport. I would have liked to been on this ride with Jim from the beginning, it’s just plain fascinating.
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Wow! There is going to be a market for that!
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It's just impressive. The carving is far beyond my poor abilities. If I ever get the opportunity to order another of Jim's kits, for sure I'd order it with the carving.
Christian
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I have to agree with chowmi. I can see the appeal to someone who does not want to attempt carving. But it is very obviously carved by a computer.
From my phone, I can't tell it from something Jim hand carved ; ) looks like his style and precision to a "T"
Thank you James!
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I can't imagine why anyone would get bunched panties over this. It looks fantastic. If someone likes it, they'll buy it. If someone doesn't like it, then don't buy it. I also don't think anyone who wants a totally one-of rifle is going to be all, well I guess I'll buy this instead and have one that a bunch of other people have. I don't mean that as a negative in any way - I mean there is plenty of room in the world for whatever anyone wants. If it makes you smile, it's all good (long as it's legal!).
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I initially thought this was a teaser for a set of carving tools or something of that nature, I'm not sure if it's shadows being cast or some artifact from compressing the image, but it looks to me like there's some faceting around the incise cut highlighted in green (but nothing a few swipes of sandpaper couldn't blend together):
(https://i.ibb.co/JBVLZN3/kiblercarve.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
If Jim was onto a new way to approach incise carving and was selling the tools needed, I was on board. I guess I was halfway right, I was just stuck thinking in the hand tool box, and I don't think I can afford the tooling needed to take on carving with this approach :o
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Jim, just another great Idea from you and I am still wondering about what is possible by using CNC.
Will you offer although a kind of carving for the Lockplate or Barrel?
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I can't imagine why anyone would get bunched panties over this. It looks fantastic. If someone likes it, they'll buy it. If someone doesn't like it, then don't buy it. I also don't think anyone who wants a totally one-of rifle is going to be all, well I guess I'll buy this instead and have one that a bunch of other people have. I don't mean that as a negative in any way - I mean there is plenty of room in the world for whatever anyone wants. If it makes you smile, it's all good (long as it's legal!).
There you go…. Well said.
Jeff
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I have to agree with chowmi. I can see the appeal to someone who does not want to attempt carving. But it is very obviously carved by a computer.
I agree. However, where's line between having CNC'd stock and then going all in and having everything CNC'd?.
However, it does look 'too perfect' for my taste.
My previous career was in visual effects/computer graphics and we probably spent more time on adding imperfections to the 'perfect' image that the computer would create, in order to make it look real.
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In my opinion there is a market for this for a LOT of people out there. Someone who wants a nicely adorned rifle but either does not have the skill or willing to pay for some talented gun builder to make a rifle for them that cost a fortune and takes 5 + years to get - most would likely be dead by that time.
I look at this like the modern laser engraved handguns and rifles out there today. If you like it and want one then by all means buy one if not then pass it buy ;D
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I initially thought this was a teaser for a set of carving tools or something of that nature, I'm not sure if it's shadows being cast or some artifact from compressing the image, but it looks to me like there's some faceting around the incise cut highlighted in green (but nothing a few swipes of sandpaper couldn't blend together):
(https://i.ibb.co/JBVLZN3/kiblercarve.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
If Jim was onto a new way to approach incise carving and was selling the tools needed, I was on board. I guess I was halfway right, I was just stuck thinking in the hand tool box, and I don't think I can afford the tooling needed to take on carving with this approach :o
Tools for incised carving are called gouges or sweeps. They have been available for more than a thousand years. I wouldn't expect Kibler would try and reinvent the wheel by selling chisels. BTW, I don't know what exactly you're seeing in that miniscule cut, but I'd keep sandpaper out of it.
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I initially thought this was a teaser for a set of carving tools or something of that nature, I'm not sure if it's shadows being cast or some artifact from compressing the image, but it looks to me like there's some faceting around the incise cut highlighted in green (but nothing a few swipes of sandpaper couldn't blend together):
If Jim was onto a new way to approach incise carving and was selling the tools needed, I was on board. I guess I was halfway right, I was just stuck thinking in the hand tool box, and I don't think I can afford the tooling needed to take on carving with this approach :o
Tools for incised carving are called gouges or sweeps. They have been available for more than a thousand years. I wouldn't expect Kibler would try and reinvent the wheel by selling chisels. BTW, I don't know what exactly you're seeing in that miniscule cut, but I'd keep sandpaper out of it.
Maybe this will help better illustrate what I'm seeing:
(https://i.ibb.co/dj8HHn1/kiblercarve.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
I've never seen tool marks like that in any other incise carving I've looked at so far, hence my confusion. I'll go back and sit in the newbie corner.
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You actually can find facets like that in incised carving that was cut by a V parting chisel and driven with a hammer. Just like you can find them in hammer-driven engraving to some extent. You can find anything if you look at it with a magnifying glass. I don't think historically anyone was looking at anything with a magnifying glass. I also sure hope someone doesn't look at anything I do with a magnifying glass.
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You actually can find facets like that in incised carving that was cut by a V parting chisel and driven with a hammer. Just like you can find them in hammer-driven engraving to some extent. You can find anything if you look at it with a magnifying glass. I don't think historically anyone was looking at anything with a magnifying glass. I also sure hope someone doesn't look at anything I do with a magnifying glass.
Me too. Sometimes I engrave a wide line.
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Sometime I am playing with tools when I should not be doing so. Wink wink nod nod. Say no more.
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You actually can find facets like that in incised carving that was cut by a V parting chisel and driven with a hammer. Just like you can find them in hammer-driven engraving to some extent. You can find anything if you look at it with a magnifying glass. I don't think historically anyone was looking at anything with a magnifying glass. I also sure hope someone doesn't look at anything I do with a magnifying glass.
Me too. Sometimes I engrave a wide line.
(https://i.ibb.co/WVCJDmT/9-A0-A687-C-21-F4-4888-BC69-11-A0-FD79-BFE5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ZJ48Gb)
You mean like this?
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W/ the advent of a CNC carved LR. the only person having an advantage is Jim Kibler. ....money, money. What isn't acknowledged is that Kibler's products are destroying the art of building a LR. Kibler LR models are so easy that little technique is acquired when assembling his products. When will people "wake up" as to what his motives are.....again money, money...
I really pity the custom builders of LRs who shortly will go broke because of Kibler.
And the future models will continue to be introduced to continue making more money.....the life span of his models is short lived and evidently boring to assemble....too easy.
Kibler has a big advantage.....a captive audience of AL members and Kibler will be remembered as the person who destroyed the custom building of LRs.......Fred
Ah, I wondered when you would arrive to the party! Actually the sales of our very first kit just continue to grow. You're assumptions are pretty much wrong. If so boring to assemble, wonder why we have so many repeat customers? More than anyone would probably guess.
To each his own. We live in a country where we can make choices. Do you really want the alternative?
I would wager we have brought more people into the longrifle culture than anyone else has in recent times. Times change. I'm not afraid to keep pushing forward even if you don't like it! Ha.
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You actually can find facets like that in incised carving that was cut by a V parting chisel and driven with a hammer. Just like you can find them in hammer-driven engraving to some extent. You can find anything if you look at it with a magnifying glass. I don't think historically anyone was looking at anything with a magnifying glass. I also sure hope someone doesn't look at anything I do with a magnifying glass.
Me too. Sometimes I engrave a wide line.
(https://i.ibb.co/WVCJDmT/9-A0-A687-C-21-F4-4888-BC69-11-A0-FD79-BFE5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ZJ48Gb)
You mean like this?
Well, that is a MASTERPIECE. If it hadn't had that flaw showing it to be hand made it would be pretty much worthless! Ha
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W/ the advent of a CNC carved LR. the only person having an advantage is Jim Kibler. ....money, money. What isn't acknowledged is that Kibler's products are destroying the art of building a LR. Kibler LR models are so easy that little technique is acquired when assembling his products. When will people "wake up" as to what his motives are.....again money, money...
I really pity the custom builders of LRs who shortly will go broke because of Kibler.
And the future models will continue to be introduced to continue making more money.....the life span of his models is short lived and evidently boring to assemble....too easy.
Kibler has a big advantage.....a captive audience of AL members and Kibler will be remembered as the person who destroyed the custom
building of LRs.......Fred
Mr. Kibler is running a business. His products have gained wide acceptance and approval. Rightfully so. Ideally, the intent is to make a living from one's business. In accusing him of putting custom builders out of business, you're indirectly making the same accusation towards the people who buy his products. Are we all supposed to buy nice rifles only from a custom builder if we don't want to risk building a rifle that may turn out to be a tomato stake? Perhaps all custom rifle builders should ignore products sold by Rice, Track, The Log Cabin and such go back to fabricating their own parts from scratch. Maybe even building their own rifling machine. Now that's keeping tradition alive. If your theory was adhered to, there would be two kinds of shooters with muzzleloaders that are not over the counter products. You'd have the ones that are fine with paying thousands of dollars for a rifle and those who choose to build one themselves. Some of those rifles will turn out fine, others will not because the builder doesn't have the necessary skill level. I like the option offered by Mr. Kibler.
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There is no way that the progression and ingenuity of these kits will hinder anyone from building from the stick or hand embellishments. The handful that have or will acquire that rare desire will be driven to do so regardless and they will not purchase said items in lieu of doing it themselves. What these kits do is offer something for those who have no desire to pursue things down a path that only a few choose to trod no matter the external factors. It would also behoove many of us mortals to have something like this on hand to show us how slab sided, unrefined and formless our work is in comparison. That last comment is directed at myself and Im referring to Jim's work and not the result of the CNC producing it. I have known this fellow for many years and have learned under him what my feeble talents can comprehend. I can say with authority that what we see in architecture, symmetry, artistry and form in all elements of these products is not CNC but Jim Kibler.
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JK, keep on keeping on!! Good stuff!!
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The moderators strive for no preferential treatment here. Since everyone has different preferences, I’m sure it doesn’t always seem we reach that goal. There’s nothing in Jim’s post that comes close to breaking any policies here. All are welcome to share their new and old inventory. However, personal attacks are not allowed.
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The CNC carving and quality on the kit is beautiful and well beyond my skills. But I would not buy it, because there will be lots of identical rifles. I would want my rifle to have more of a personal touch. The cnc kits without the carving gives more opportunities to personalize the rifle.
Best regards
Rolf
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The CNC carving and quality on the kit is beautiful and well beyond my skills. But I would not buy it, because there will be lots of identical rifles. I would want my rifle to have more of a personal touch. The cnc kits without the carving gives more opportunities to personalize the rifle.
Best regards
Rolf
Many (Most) do not have the ability and / or desire to carve a longrifle. For those that do, they should buy one of our un-carved rifles and have at it themselves!
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Whoever laid out the drawing and design certainly did a nice job. I assume it was Jim and I really like the basic design. I never particularly cared for incised carving, except when it was used to enhance relief carving. A good portion of that carving could easily be turned into raised carving, and possibly eliminate some of the incised. A builder could customize the carving and change the whole look of the finished rifle which might make them feel better. Most people will be very satisfied with it just the way it is.
I can't imagine how you did this Jim but you surely did a great job.
David Price
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I heard people say the same thing when my friend, Jim Chambers started with his kits. Didn’t seam to hurt the custom builder’s business ,that I could see. True this is a lot less to learn about gunmaking than Jim’s fine kits were. I think the market for custom work will remain like it has in every other art form. I also think the better artists will continue to have that extra drive to learn to build their own. I do think there is room for us all in this muzzle loading world. Just my thoughts. Buzz on boys.
Bob Typed earlier forgot to hit post. Anybody wonder why I can’t run a cnc machine good luck all
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I just don't get why this subject always ends up in an argument. We all need to drink more.
It's not like we're discussing, say, a post-war clunky rifle by John Rupp and trying to inflate it's value by making up a wild story about his father George making it. And subsequently signing it "John."
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I remember years ago when Pedersoli beginn using CNC the produkt begin to be MUCH better ;)
Runar
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We all need to drink more
HERE HERE! Kettenburg always seems to find the solution to the problem. ;D
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You actually can find facets like that in incised carving that was cut by a V parting chisel and driven with a hammer. Just like you can find them in hammer-driven engraving to some extent. You can find anything if you look at it with a magnifying glass. I don't think historically anyone was looking at anything with a magnifying glass. I also sure hope someone doesn't look at anything I do with a magnifying glass.
Me too. Sometimes I engrave a wide line.
(https://i.ibb.co/WVCJDmT/9-A0-A687-C-21-F4-4888-BC69-11-A0-FD79-BFE5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ZJ48Gb)
You mean like this?
THAT'S IT! I have done tons of horrible stuff like that over the years. It's funny how many people send me their stuff to be engraved. I always recommend Chuck Edwards but he has a longer wait time and charges more. You would think people would learn. ;D
EDIT: Dam! I run some of the best borders in the business! 8)
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Since Fred's post has mysteriously disappeared... :o It IS all about making money. It's why I built guns for a long time, I gots bills to pay! I sure as heck wouldn't have wasted 43 years of my life if I wasn't making money. There is nothing wrong with making money, it's called capitalism. It's what our economy is based on.
Kibler's stuff is great and puts people in the game with a nice gun they otherwise couldn't afford. Having been a fulltime builder I can say Kibler's kits never took any business away from me. People expect a certain "look" from my work, that's why they have me build guns and that's why I was/am successful.
Carry on, I'm going to take EK's advice now. ;)
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For many years I have admired Jim Kibler's rifles....the ones he made by hand before he ever sold a kit...Certainly one of the very top, most precise, accurate, and artistic builders in the world. A very small club!
I learned a lot from his work, his teaching, and generous advice... and he never BS'd! Many have found a way to personalize the Kibler kits, and I am sure they will do the same with this carved rifle as well...... It all depends on what you want to do and/or what you want for a product. I would love a handmade Kibler rifle... but I may be better able to afford one of these kits... I love the guns I have built and what I have learned along the way, but I don't have enough years left to develop the talent Jim already has and has been able to provide us with the opportunity to own such fine work.
There are many on here whose work I would love to own, many who have helped me immensely and Jim and his CNC kits are definitely in that club... Some of the shooters in my club now have Kibler kit rifles assembled and finished by another builder.. they are among the very nicest guns in the club and attract a lot of visitor attention! I think that is good for our sport/art and the mystery of the American Longrifle! Thanks Jim!! I love it.
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Well I just read all these opinions.... When I first got interested in front stuffers their wasn't much in good quality kits. So I decided to make my own... Now along comes Jim Kibler and his CNC kits that are P.C. H.C.styled to perfection but that's a false word because Jim isn't one to ever say good enough like some others do...Their idea of improvement is raising their prices...
Before anyone gets on their high horse I have never bought anything from him. I just recognize his commitment to helping people get into muzzle loaders. Giving them a high quality product for a reasonable cost without breaking the bank.... Keep doing what your doing Jim and Katherine and let the nay sayers do what they do best....nothing...!
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We all need to drink more
HERE HERE! Kettenburg always seems to find the solution to the problem. ;D
I can agree with you all on this statement.
And don’t get me wrong, there’s no doubt in Jim’s Business success and skill, or his rifles.
It’s just a slippery slope, 5 years from now Kibler may have a “Albrect, Beck, Dickert, Schroyer, Reedy, Haines, ect.” Which would definitely hurt the custom builders, and an amazing tradition. I don’t have a leg in the game my income is not related to muzzleloading, however for those that are I can see their perspective. I have a lot of respect for the phenomenal builders who have made a living out of this tradition.
Jim you said you owe no responsibility in your recent video, I’d think any member of the CLA, KRA, or NMLRA would want to preserve this culture. You have certainly brought alot of people to the community, and like I said to you previously you are in a unique position to do a lot of good, hopefully you find a balance. “Great powder/great responsibility”.
I think there’s currently a void you are filling, but it’s where CNC can take you… and as people have predicted the future before—this is probably it. I’d rather see more Kibler rifles personally with your own influences.
That’s my perspective, it’s not an attack by any means. If you do a Beck Kit—you will be telling my families history— so your helping me In essence- my goal is to tell the story.😂😜
But who am I? Just stirring the pot for contemplation.
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I don t think any custom makers will close their shops as there will always be someone that wants something different or personal.Also most people will never have the funds for a custom gun but they can buy a Kibler and have a nice gun that they can afford and enjoy.This is a boon to our sport
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I hear the naysayers speaking of, oh this might happen, or that might happen, or this is and that might happen. All the while Jim Kibler is producing a quality product and offering options to customers for what they want and keeps them involved in traditional muzzleloading. Those that have the skills or want to develop the skills will always seek an advanced kit or plank build and those with enough money will pay for a custom build. For me, the greatest aspect of Jim’s rifles is they’re great shooters, accurate and consistent.
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Jim,
Maybe a wood box Beck with minimal relief carving/molding around the lock panels (beaver tail & apron) and possibly incised lines along the lower butt stock and out the fore arm.
Any remaining adornment could be left to the customer's discretion/abilities.
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What custom makers are worrying about this? I keep reading comments about "custom makers" quaking in their shoes but I don't recall hearing from any who have anything negative to say. IMHO, if there are "custom makers" who are legitimately threatened by this, they probably have a number of other issues to worry about. Maybe worried "custom makers" should embrace the capitalist spirit of the US while they still can and try to one-up what Jim is doing, or perhaps create a more "custom" niche for themselves that will always remain in demand.
I will always admire anyone who builds a successful business for themselves. That's what the US is all about. Or should be.
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I totally disagree that the Kibler kit is having a negative impact on anything. It’s quite the opposite for new builders. I’ve referenced my buddies Kibler kit a dozen times. Never once have I referenced the TVM kit I started out on. The Kibler kit is worth the money as a reference piece.
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AMEN MR. KETTENBURG!!
Al Jenkins
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You actually can find facets like that in incised carving that was cut by a V parting chisel and driven with a hammer. Just like you can find them in hammer-driven engraving to some extent. You can find anything if you look at it with a magnifying glass. I don't think historically anyone was looking at anything with a magnifying glass. I also sure hope someone doesn't look at anything I do with a magnifying glass.
Me too. Sometimes I engrave a wide line.
(https://i.ibb.co/WVCJDmT/9-A0-A687-C-21-F4-4888-BC69-11-A0-FD79-BFE5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ZJ48Gb)
You mean like this?
THAT'S IT! I have done tons of horrible stuff like that over the years. It's funny how many people send me their stuff to be engraved. I always recommend Chuck Edwards but he has a longer wait time and charges more. You would think people would learn. ;D
EDIT: Dam! I run some of the best borders in the business! 8)
(https://i.ibb.co/fD4Psqw/E5-DA2-D20-29-E0-4-B9-A-B70-A-7-BCD0-BD61-F9-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6XgfkrC)
Chuck fixed it.
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At this point Kibler really has little competition in the flintlock kit business. Other brands kits require a bit too much for most people.
Pretty much any person can assemble a Kibler kit and make a very fine looking and very accurate rifle with minimal tools and with no experience at all. How could anyone argue that is a bad thing?
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Sorry guys but this topic has become very heated and personal attacks have occured. I removed a few posts. If you want to continue this discussion use PM's to each other but try to respect each other's opinions in a civil manner.
This topic is locked
Dennis