Which Revolutionary War Rifle?

[Bob Smalser]

I'm looking for the most likely design of rifle my ancestor Christopher Neuhart (1729-1776) of Northampton County Pennsylvania used at the Battle of Long Island, where he was killed in action serving as a Private in the 1st Battalion of the Pennsylvania Rifle Regiment in Henry Shade's company.  Members didn't carry issued muskets, but individually-owned rifles.

His third cousin Peter Newhard (1743-1813) was a noted gunsmith at the time, and one of his lock plates is depicted below.  Peter was 33 at the time, and would have already been well established in the trade.  The two men were neighbors, and attended the same church, so I'm certain they were acquainted.

While I'm experienced in firearms and gunsmithing, I don't know much about long rifles.  Is circa 1770 a bit early for the graceful lines of the classic Pennsylvania long rifle?  Would a shorter-barreled Jaeger rifle have been more likely?  Or some manner of transition design between the Jaeger rifles their fathers used in Germany and the later American designs?

Any input is appreciated.

[Nate McKenzie]

This book [first column, second down may be of interest to you.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartList.aspx?catID=4&subID=24&styleID=71&PageSize=10&Page=4

[nosrettap1958]

Bob, when the long rifle started spreading into Northampton County, Allentown/Bethlehem areas the long graceful lines of the American longrifle was while not completely established were being recognized more frequently. If the rifle was built at Christian’s Spring by the Moravians in 1770’s he may have had a transitionary  rifle in his hands but if the rifle was built in Northampton county I would say that you are more than safe to say that his rifle had the graceful lines of a longrifle.

[rich pierce]

Agree, and you must be proud of your heritage.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Well there is the 1787 dated rifle as a benchmark in regard to what he was making 11 years later, still fairly substantial, and the Christian Oerter rifles are dated 1774 though 1777 and Oerter was working about what - 10 miles? - away.  There are a few unpublished pieces that are probably Peter ca. 1775-1780s, and they coincidentally fall right around the middle of these.  Peter's stocking was excellent, he seemed to favor the perpetuation of a long and low cheekpiece when the rest of the area went shorter and higher - this is a throwback to an earlier style.  His decorative carving was similar but different when compared to Moll, Rupp or Oerter.  It was less formal, more of self taught nature (my opinion) and not quite as accomplished in the professional European sense, but very appropriate to the region and quite attractive.  Kind of like the stuffier 'formal' work after a few beers and most of a chicken.  More American, less German.  Decoration that you execute after you had to split a few cords of wood.  Personally, I feel a lot of attraction to his work.

If Christopher was born in 1729, and we are going to speak n hypotheticals here, it is possible he had a personal piece prior to Peter engaging in gun work.  But a rifle?  I think it is pretty well established that as late as 1763, anyway, most of these people were not armed - or at least, not armed well - and were completely unprepared when the natives decided to vacation on the civilized side of the Blue Mountain.  So, if Christopher was armed with a rifle, it was likely a recent occurrence.  We cannot say for certain what these guys were doing prior to the mid 1770s - Oerter's work at Christian's Spring is the still the earliest documented NH county rifle work.  However, it already shows evolution so it is *likely* there was earlier work being undertaken.  Peter was taxed as a smith of some sort in 1767.  George Leyendecker was stocking something with a brass box in 1771.  Someone made a $#*! of a rifle for Edward Marshall and someone made a $#*! of a piece - rifle stocked, whether rifled or not - for David Deschler, suspiciously close to Peter.

If it was all on me, I'd be looking really hard at Oerter's work for clues to what was going on there at the time.  Pretty substantial rifles, not made for Saturday outings only.   

[Bob Smalser]

Thanks, gentlemen.  Some additional detail and argument.

In the 1750's and 1760's cash was scarce among subsistence farmers yet the Indian threat very real.  After the Lenapi raid of 1763 in Whitehall and Allen Twps, Northampton only asked Philadelphia for 50 guns.  If nobody out there had been armed, they would have asked for 200 guns or more.  Plus I can’t imagine living unarmed on the edge of wilderness in an era when wolves were a greater threat to livestock than hostile Indians, and local elk and deer remained as food stock.

Plus you didn't just join Thompson's Rifle Battalion in 1775 and early 1776.  You had to own your own rifle and pass a skill test that included marksmanship.  That early in the war men were eager to join, and Thompson could afford to discriminate.  After Concord, Pennsylvania was asked to raise 6 companies of riflemen yet she raised 9 and later more, most of which joined Washington while he still encircled Boston.   (The standards didn’t change until after we lost New York, where Christopher was killed.)

That means Christopher, and his younger cousin Philip who enlisted 6 months before him (walking all the way to Harrisburg to do so), most likely already had rifles and knew how to use them.  I've never actually fired a flintlock, but I imagine to hit inside of Thompson's 7-inch standard at 250 yards, the trigger control and follow-through requirements are significant compared to a faster-ignition, higher-velocity modern rifle.  That would take a bit of practice even for the folks on the  firing line at Camp Perry.  LTC Oscar Stroh’s book on Thompson’s Battalion provides more detail.

While Christopher’s teenage cousin was from a farm near Bethlehem, by 1775 fairly well-off, and could have afforded a Moravian rifle, Christopher was a failed farmer from further out near Portland in Bethel Twp, didn’t have any hard cash to spend and never did, and in his 40’s, probably used a rifle he’d had for a while.  That’s why I lean toward his cousin Peter Newhard’s early work.  These families all pitched in to help kin in need, and Peter’s father owed his early success to Christopher’s father.  Christopher was already a distressed farmer in the early 1760’s when his wife also died in childbirth, probably leaving him to support his remaining child on what he could make as a shoemaker, hunter and trapper after he lost his farm.  

I also suspect there were a heckuva lot more guns out there originally than the few (nicer) ones that survived intact.  The one I do have hanging on the wall from the 1840’s wears its original furniture but its second lock, second barrel and third stock.  Recycled parts on fresh stocks, and most of the rehab work period-correct and professionally-executed.  It appears to me the workaday guns got used up and their useable parts recycled as a matter of routine, the original piece losing its identity.  Same with archived records.  Only the colonial-era wolf bounty records from Chester County have apparently survived, when we know all the other agricultural counties paid bounties on wolves and (later) other predators all the way into the 1960’s.  Like a lot of farm boys, I ran a trapline in the ‘50’s and ‘60’s and collected my share.

[nosrettap1958]

Yea but Eric, as substantial as a Yeager rifle or substantial as it applies to the American longrifle through more of a poor boys or barn rifle? Even Edward Marshall’s rifle with its German made barrel shows some transition to the longrifle does it not? 

[Bob Pearl]

Has anyone ever factually proven the jaeger was produced in America?

[Dale Campbell]

On Eric's website he has references from the Pennsylvania Packet that jaegers were imported from Germany and sold by merchants in Philadelphia in the early 1770's.  That doesn't address the question of were they made here. More just muddles it, because now the hardware is available to reuse. And you could buy imported rifle barrels off the rack, so to speak. Check out his website.

[Dphariss]

Has anyone ever factually proven the jaeger was produced in America?

It is hard for me to believe that a trained gunstocker from Germany would be incapable of making a Jaeger.  But the short barreled rifle was obviously not popular in America (or so it seems anyway) and "4 ft" was a common barrel length by at least the 1750s. And long barreled guns and rifles were known in Germany as well.
Then we have to remember that the apparently ENGLISH were importing rifles with "4 foot" barrels in the 1750s for the native trade at least. This from Dewitt Bailey's "British Military Flintlock Rifles".


I think the problem with the classic German rifle we call a Jaeger in 1770 America was bore size (supposition on my part but its a good supposition I think).
in 1775 J.J. Henry bought a rifle after loosing his that was short in the barrel and used a 48 caliber ball. Was this rifle an "American Jaeger"? We are not likely to find out. How short was it? 30" barrel? 36? No way to know.

I think the answer to the original question is to determine as closely as possible where the ancestor was living at the time it is thought he would have purchased a rifle then find a maker in that area that made good quality rifles and have one made in this makers style.  Copies are not needed. It is extremely unlikely that any maker made two rifles exactly alike anyway.
A rifle by his third cousin is a viable option as well and would keep things in the family so to speak.

Dan

[Dale Campbell]

My error, the refs are from the Pennsylvania Gazette. 

A 1766 entry lists a good description of a German rifle, including a 2 ft barrel with a "large bore".  A 1770 entry lists a merchant having 100 German rifle barrels. A 1771 entry describes a rifle with a 2ft 10in barrel. Several descriptions of smooth rifles.  Apparently you could walk into one shop in Philly and choose from "a QUANTITY" of American or German rifles or smooth rifles.

Do not quote my excerpts. Check Eric K's website.  He's dug a lot out of these entries.

[tom patton]

Has anyone ever factually proven the jaeger was produced in America?

Bob, as you might remember I have asked that very same question on that earlier board on which you and I  were the resident Heretics espousing such beliefs as  the French Hugenot influence on early rifles from the Lehigh Valley and other nearby areas.I didn't get an answer then and sadly I don't think you will get one here.I have written several posts on other boards {Frontier Folks and Muzzle Loading Forums}  but to no avail.I fear too many people are locked into the "all Kentucky rifles evolve from the Jaeger rifle" syndrome.
Nevertheless it's good to see you posting again.
Tom Patton

[Dphariss]

Has anyone ever factually proven the jaeger was produced in America?

Bob, as you might remember I have asked that very same question on that earlier board on which you and I  were the resident Heretics espousing such beliefs as  the French Hugenot influence on early rifles from the Lehigh Valley and other nearby areas.I didn't get an answer then and sadly I don't think you will get one here.I have written several posts on other boards {Frontier Folks and Muzzle Loading Forums}  but to no avail.I fear too many people are locked into the "all Kentucky rifles evolve from the Jaeger rifle" syndrome.
Nevertheless it's good to see you posting again.
Tom Patton

There are a lot of folks on some other sites who have a very bigoted view of the past.
The French influence seems plausible to me.
AND we need to remember that Gunsmiths trained in the guild system very likely spent time in France while on journey. So thinking that a German trained gunstocker would not know about the styles from Sweden to Italy is not really realistic.
So while the style may have been French Huguenot it could have come here with a German who thought oustide the box, liked the style and built himself something similar and things just went from there ?
Supposition of course but possible.
Many of the people who came here came to escape the restraints of European society. A gunstocker there, regardless of talent might never make "master" but in America he could work for himself and the guild had no control.
This is just a variant way of looking at things and another way for French influence to get into PA for those you might balk a different "French connection".

But then we could look at Lenk's book plate 32. Swoopy toe line from Zurich circa 1650. French early 18th century.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

I believe the development of the classic Lehigh architecture is just a matter of creative evolution.  Sure these German gunsmiths might have had some limited exposure to French architectural styles, but I don't see it as the major driving force over time.  What caused the onset of the evolution in architecture will surely never be known, but in my view I see the process that occured as a creative expression and the desire to make something interesting and unique. 

[Majorjoel]

I would have to disagree with you on that point Jim. When it comes to the "classic Lehigh" form, I can see so much more French influence than anything Germanic. German jaeger rifles for the most part were "husky"stocky pieces as were the types made by Oerter at Christian Springs. They had more of a straight pronounced comb line with a very visual perpendicular angle from comb to wrist. Where the classic Lehigh Neihardts, Rupps, Molls were sleek, slender form with much curvature in their comb lines and the very gradual comb to wrist joining (what we call today the Roman nose). This of coarse is my personal opinion only but it comes from a lot of study. When you look at French fusils and muskets of this period you see the form and shape a lot closer to the Lehigh pattern than any other European example. Even the Fleur de lues patchbox makes a bold French statement. Then there is the great mysterious liberty capped head figure on quite a few examples. Many of them look like tassle capped Frenchmen to me, not Indians.

[Jim Kibler]

I would have to disagree with you on that point Jim. When it comes to the "classic Lehigh" form, I can see so much more French influence than anything Germanic. German jaeger rifles for the most part were "husky"stocky pieces as were the types made by Oerter at Christian Springs. They had more of a straight pronounced comb line with a very visual perpendicular angle from comb to wrist. Where the classic Lehigh Neihardts, Rupps, Molls were sleek, slender form with much curvature in their comb lines and the very gradual comb to wrist joining (what we call today the Roman nose). This of coarse is my personal opinion only but it comes from a lot of study. When you look at French fusils and muskets of this period you see the form and shape a lot closer to the Lehigh pattern than any other European example. Even the Fleur de lues patchbox makes a bold French statement. Then there is the great mysterious liberty capped head figure on quite a few examples. Many of them look like tassle capped Frenchmen to me, not Indians.

With all due respect, I think you might be missing my point.  I'll try again.  A basic point to make, the gunsmiths producing these guns were in large part German or of Germanic descent.  They were not French.  They may have been exposed to French styles to a small degree from trade guns etc.  The transition from strongly Germanic forms to the classic Lehigh style occured over a considerable period of time.  It was an evolutionary process.  The French architecture being referenced was in place well before any of this development occured.  I don't believe there was an attempt to copy or mimic these styles due to the gradual transition which occured.  What the initial driving force for the process of change which occured could have been French influence, but we will likely never know.  Once it started it became something of it's own and not a re-hashing of something from the past.  I think it's pretty simplistic view to look at the fully developed Lehigh style, compare and contrast it to French / Germanic work and draw conclusions.  A final point.  This is basically just some thoughts and opinions.  Sort of thinking out loud for the sake of debate.  There are others who are much more knowledgeable than I am about this subject.

[Dphariss]

Look closely at the Thomas Rifle in RCA.
While they were mostly removed in the there are Fluer de lis present on the rifle.

I doubt the "French influence" thing is resolvable.

Some German who spent 6 months or a year in France when on journey probably had more than a passing familiarity with French gun making.
For all we know some journeyman gunstocker with a German name may have arrived in America with a whole stack of patterns he had drawn in France.
These gunsmiths/stockers had to have some demonstrated artistic ability to even get into the apprenticeship so they were not a dunce who only did things by rote.
The European trained gunsmiths were far better trained and had a much more well rounded education  than many today seem to think possible.
I see the Fluer De Lis as an artistic statement rather than a statement of national origin.
ALL the Royal Families of Europe are connected and coats of arms etc tend to have "foreign" symbolism for a variety of reasons.
Some French journeyman (men) may have lived and worked in PA and brought in non-Germanic forms and people LIKED them. Some French influenced German may have made himself a rifle with a swoopy toe line and consistently won rifle matches with it and people wanted one just like it.
While its a very interesting topic of discussion there is going to be no smoking gun of where the designs came from.
I found these with a search for 17th century German coats of arms.


This one was under Albrecht [3] at http://wappenbuch.com/E251.htm




So fluer de lis, for example, are not iron clad evidence of French influence. Could be german could be English. They were everywhere.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

I'd be interested in hearing the sources for the thought that Germainic apprentices would spend considerable time in France.  I would question this kind of cooperation given the nature of conflict and power struggles so common in Europe during this general time period. 

Another point...  Generally I don't believe gunsmiths who came to this country were of the highly trained variety that we often think of when viewing the fantastic Europen pieces today.  If I'm not mistaken, Albrect for example in his memoirs talks of the considerable time he spent traveling a a military stocker or repairman of military arms.  An established gunsmith with skill and ability wouldn't likely have the desire to leave Europe as compared to those of a lower standing. 

A final point.  It doesn't take much of a symmetrical group of leaves before one can interpret it as a fleur de lis.  It may be nothing of the sort.

[James Rogers]

Quite a few swoopy French examples were on this side of the pond prior to the advent of the school.  John Doe moves down from up north with his curvy smooth bored maiden. Not a stretch for someone to follow many characteristics of one particular piece and have it evolve into something of it's own from there. I really believe the influence is coming from an example as opposed to prior Euro knowledge and training.


Of course all these posts are speculation. It's good when it generates more study.......as long as someone does not start to preach a theory as a final gospel.

[Bob Smalser]

What mystery?

While they were German families, the Molls, Newhards, Oerters, Kuntz's, Rupps, Schreckengosts all came from within a few miles of each other along the main highway of the Rhine River either in what is now Alsace-Lorraine France or Rhineland-Pfalz/Nordrhein-Westphalia Germany right across the border.  If taste and sense of style is influenced by upbringing and family as well as the principle markets of Metz, Karlsruhe, Cologne and Strasbourg, of course there was French influence.  Plenty of it.  Even in the Frankish and Allemanic settled areas of "France".

It was Andreas Albrecht (1718-1802) who would have different tastes.  He was from what remains today the center of German gunmaking in Zella-Mehlis, Thuringer Wald, near Suhl on the East German side of what used to be the inter-German border.  200 miles and two mountain ranges away from Alsace, in the Elbe River drainage.  Zella's influence and markets were to the north, in Berlin, Hamburg and Prussia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhl

The french gunmaking centers were in Paris and at Ste Etienne.  As an aside, when the Euro is right, some of the best values today in "fine English doubles" are 16ga guild guns made in Ste Etienne.  All the class, balance and quality of Birmingham and even some London guns without the cost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-%C3%89tienne

[smshea]

What mystery?

While they were German families, the Molls, Newhards, Oerters, Kuntz's, Rupps, Schreckengosts all came from within a few miles of each other along the main highway of the Rhine River either in what is now Alsace-Lorraine France or Rhineland-Pfalz/Nordrhein-Westphalia Germany right across the border.  If taste and sense of style is influenced by upbringing and family as well as the principle markets of Metz, Karlsruhe, Cologne and Strasbourg, of course there was French influence.  Plenty of it.  Even in the Frankish and Allemanic settled areas of "France".

It was Andreas Albrecht (1718-1802) who would have different tastes.  He was from what remains today the center of German gunmaking in Zella-Mehlis, Thuringer Wald, near Suhl on the East German side of what used to be the inter-German border.  200 miles and two mountain ranges away from Alsace, in the Elbe River drainage.  Zella's influence and markets were to the north, in Berlin, Hamburg and Prussia.

Amen! Between their area of origin and the Huguenot influence on the generation before them running all over Germany as well as the number of Huguenots in Pa/NJ, its a wonder there isn't more French influence seen in other places in Central Pa.   

[Bob Smalser]

...its a wonder there isn't more French influence seen in other places in Central Pa.  

To this day my favorite work-a-day "German" beer remains Kronenbourg, which has been brewed in Strassbourg, France since 1664.  But Pilsner Urquell fits the bill as well on a higher level.  It's brewed in the Czeck Republic.  

I'm sure there'd be some great "German" beers today in Russia, too.  Except that those who didn't immigrate to America from Russia at the turn of the last century, (after immigrating from Germany to Russia in the 1720's-50's) Stalin killed off in the 1930's.

[Dphariss]

I'd be interested in hearing the sources for the thought that Germainic apprentices would spend considerable time in France.  I would question this kind of cooperation given the nature of conflict and power struggles so common in Europe during this general time period. 

Another point...  Generally I don't believe gunsmiths who came to this country were of the highly trained variety that we often think of when viewing the fantastic Europen pieces today.  If I'm not mistaken, Albrect for example in his memoirs talks of the considerable time he spent traveling a a military stocker or repairman of military arms.  An established gunsmith with skill and ability wouldn't likely have the desire to leave Europe as compared to those of a lower standing. 

A final point.  It doesn't take much of a symmetrical group of leaves before one can interpret it as a fleur de lis.  It may be nothing of the sort.

The new KRA book  "Moravian Gunmaking of the American Revolution"  states that they generally journeyed (this was documented) for 3 years but sometimes more traveling widely in Germany and other countries. It was why they were called journeymen.
Pg 15. 1730's "Valentine Marr, born in Zella...apprenticed in his native Germany...spent 2 years (1727-1729) working as a journeyman in Sweden...After a brief return to Zella, he departed permanently for Copenhagen...
On page 17 is detailed the travels of a saddler journeyman who traveled to and worked in 10 countries over 7 years.
And describing Daniel Kliest a locksmith working in 10 cities including Strassburg, Bern and Prag, "and many other places" while on journey.

On pg 18
"If we think that these men who learned their trade in Europe...could only build in one "school", or carve one pattern, we are not giving them nearly enough credit..."


The fluer de lis elements in the drawings I posted seem fairly obvious.

The form is an artistic interpretation of a Lily no matter where its used.
I would suggest that people thinking that the Fluer De Lis is solely French do more research.
I would suggest looking into the Coat of Arms of Wiesbaden, Germany.  Now this may be a very recent coat of arms but its Fleur De Lis just the same. I have a hard time thinking the city would adopt symbolism that was soley French.

More research will show that the Fluer De Lis (Lily) has been used on coats of arms and flags in various places in Europe for centuries.
So its just as likely that it was a symbol known and used in Germany and used by a German who, for what ever reason, wanted a lily on the firearm.
It would appear that assuming a "Lily" represented on an American rifle "proves" French influence is at best a "possibility".

I also dispute the inference that the immigrant Gunsmiths were too !@*%&@ dumb to create unique artwork. Be it true or not in one case or another there is no proof either way... So unless someone can find a citation in some Moravian record that Albrecht was "unskilled" or and "indifferent workman" we have to assume he was competent.
People had to meet a certain level of skill to be made a Journeyman.
The prospective Apprentice had to be the son of a craftsman or professional. There was a trial period of as much as 4 weeks in which the prospective Apprentice had to prove he had the necessary talent. Then he was fully accepted for training. Masters could not have more than 2 apprentices at a time.
Maybe Albrecht LIKED the Army. Does this not occur to anyone?

Maybe some of the people who came over here did not care for the Guild system in Europe. It was rather confining and could limit a persons advancement if I understand correctly.

All things considered I would be very surprised that was NO French influence.
But trying to pin down the exact person and date is impossible.
Some French styled gun may have been brought in for a restock and the owner stipulated a close copy of the original stock and the gunstocker liked the result.
So long as we are making things up this is as good a possibility as any.

Dan

[Eric Kettenburg]

"So long as we are making things up this is as good a possibility as any."

Quote of the year!  We should have shirts made! 

[flintriflesmith]

Eric,
I'll buy one!

Gary