A wet patch between shots for safety?

[Daryl]

I saw it happen, once.  The fellow used t-shirt material (just mic'd my tee shirt at .010") for patching in a .45, with a .440 ball - CVA percussion longrifle 1974-maybe? He said it was easy to load, but he had to wipe his bore every 2 or 3 shots or so.

Some feel it is obvious that his too-thin patch left something smoldering in the breech and when he was pushing the next one down, the powder ignited and sent the ball and rod pieces through his right hand - he was wiping every 2 or 3 shots.  Perhaps the thin patch wasn't the real reason for the discharge, after-all.  Perhaps wiping was?

Maybe we've been lucky but maybe it's due to the combinations & methods we use when shooting?  Between just the two of us, not including our friends who load similarly, Taylor and I have shot ten's of thousands of rounds since we discovered thick patches and larger balls with no wiping and have never had anything like those ignitions happen to us or to those we shoot with - who use similar combinations.  Totally, many tens of thousands of shots.  One of our local friends (shoots 100 times or more every week of the year, without fail)  has well over 10,000 rounds fired from each gun Taylor has built him + his others - no wiping between shots & no accidental discharges.

 He uses thinner patches than we do, but still, no accidental discharges- and no wiping.  We all use combinations that do not require wiping over a day's shooting. Is THAT an important factor?  When we clean our rifles, the water does not turn jet black as it does for so many other people - is the  amount of fouling left in our bores, a factor?

I totally understand what Dan is talking about concerning patent breeches and the possibility of burning hot fouling building in the breech area - or even against the breech plug of a flinter -  perhaps especially with a coned vent liner. 

This buildup of breech fouling must be especially prevalent in very hot dry conditions - yet these accidents mostly seems to happen back in the hot, but humid and MOIST Eastern USA where many people seem to use thin patching & wipe a lot because they HAVE to. Is that a factor?

I had one Eastern gentleman tell me he uses a very loose patch on an undersized brush for wiping between shots, so that it the cleaning patch doesn't push fouling down to the breech, but when he pulls it out, it bunches and pulls out all that built up fouling from the rifling - every shot - strange - we don't get built up fouling in the rifling - is that a factor?

Is WIPING between shots a major causal factor in accidental discharges because it pushes fouling down to the breech, fouling that ends up being compacted there, shot after shot, then could perhaps become a hard mass of especially hot fouling in the breech? Is wiping in that manner the ACTUAL cause of the buildup of fouling and of these ignitions? Is wiping itself a factor?

Wiping does sound like a good, solid idea from the safety standpoint- but is this actual or misconceived?  Obviously these ignitions do and have happened - but WHY are they happening so often to people who are wiping so much?  I really do believe THAT has to be addressed and not excluded from discussion or subsequent thought.

For some people and their load combinations, perhaps wiping between shots should be mandatory - if failure to wipe is a condition of these strange ignitions. But- so many of these ignitions happen to people who do wipe - why? 

Perhaps the method of wiping should be addressed, rather than wiping or not? 

[WadePatton]

Thanks for commenting Daryl. 

[Vomitus]

   Thanks for wiping Daryls.

[Dphariss]

Frankly  don't think  a wet/damp patch run down the bore does much for safety other than giving things time to cool. But wet mopping as done for Artillery (which DOES leave cartridge remnants in the breech) is not practical.
A damp patch on a tight jag pushes fouling in front of it and can pack it in the breech. I guess if its wet or damp this can be a way to cool hot spots if they exist.
I do believe that a patent type breech is more likely the have this problem than a flat faced breech.
I do know that its possible the have heavy buildups in the breech. Its been repeatedly proven at Friendship that this CAN and DOES cause discharges as the projectile or wads are seated. Nor would I want to say it was a smoldering piece of patch since everything in front of the powder charge is surely going out.
HOWEVER, some bit of lint or loose cloth inadvertently pushed down while wiping that is damp and then dried and set to smolder from a subsequent shot?
There are a host of theoretical possibilities none are proven or disproven.
Given the lack of any scientific studies we are all guessing from the absolute "scientific proof" standpoint. All I know is what I have read in MBs over the years from actual accidents and subsequent examination of the firearms involved.
Saying one has never seen it when it may only happen every 100000 or more shots is meaningless to the person with severe damage to his hand. So while it may be rare if on the wrong end of the percentage it's far too many occurrences.
If on a Platoon sized patrol and contact is made and one man in the Platoon is killed its "light casualties" except for the dead, for them its 100%.
Dan

[bob in the woods]

At our club, a fellow shooting a .36 cal flintlock rifle was experiencing multiple flashes in the pan . He had definitely loaded the rifle with powder and patched ball, so kept poking at the vent to ensure it was open. Still nothing, so..he pulled the ball and dumped the charge.
I lent him a worm and he managed to get an astonishing amount of crud out of the breach.
Enough to actually block the vent which was at least 1/8 in + in front of the breach.
Hard nasty stuff. I personally believe that this is what can potentially cause an unintentional discharge. Especially when it gets hard and absorbs oil.   He was cleaning/wiping in between shots, which he claimed was especially necessary with a small bore rifle. The jag he was using  had the usual cupped base which IMO aids in the build up problem.  The tightly patched jag pushes the fouling down the bore and there  is no real way I can see that the patch can drag it back up.

[Daryl]

My point exactly, Bob.  When I have pulled the breech plugs on a rifle before cleaning it - happened only twice in just over 40 years of shooting ML's, there was a ring of fouling around the corners of breech of the flinter - perhaps .010" thick, but only around the periphery of the plug, centre of the plug was bare steel with but one shot's light dust of fouling on it.

The other, was my .69 Sporting Rifle which experienced a rather odd leak from the top flat of the breech plug due to a long skinny air void in the casting.  That one had been fired perhaps 20 to 30 times that day before the leak happened, so had that many shots without wiping.  There was almost no buildup of fouling inside the breech - a typical Hawken-type cast breech from Track.  

The tiny hole that let smoke trickle out of that top flat of the plug, merely had a thin skin of metal over the interior cavity, the metal breaking and arching up to let the gas out.  The metal couldn't have been more than a couple thousandths thick where this 'leak' happened. The point is, there was no heavy buildup of fouling in THAT patent breech - perhaps due to it's design of having no right hand corners.  Are right hand corners a factor in contributing to this so-far, phenomenon?

That, what turned out to be a honeycombed breech, had several spots with only a couple thou. metal over the inside cavities to the outside, yet the 165gr. 2F powder charges I'd been shooting did not blow them - only the one on the top flat. The reason, of course, was that the pounds per square inch on a tiny cavity is very low - obviously.

LB- you made me laugh.

[Hungry Horse]

 I have a hard time accepting the smoldering patch in the breech theory. If you load, black stuff, stripped stuff, round stuff, how in the heck does the stripped stuff, get behind the black stuff? And while we are visiting fantasy land, why doesn't the powder ignite the minute the fresh powder is introduced into the bore with the "smoldering patch"?

                     Hungry Horse

[WadePatton]

I have a hard time accepting the smoldering patch in the breech theory. If you load, black stuff, stripped stuff, round stuff, how in the heck does the stripped stuff, get behind the black stuff? And while we are visiting fantasy land, why doesn't the powder ignite the minute the fresh powder is introduced into the bore with the "smoldering patch"?

                     Hungry Horse

See if this helps HH, it's my best understanding of the issue:

First off, It's not a patch, it's the crud.  Accumulated crud from loose patching*  or other unclean practices, possibly compounded by rough bores or complicated breeches.

*which leaves crud in the rifling upon loading-that builds up in some low number of shots and requires "wiping" for continued loading.  

The spark/ember is just _barely_ alive (as 99.8% of fuel has been expended and there's very little oxygen left inside the bore) and then this RUSH of oxygenated air gets pushed past it AND it's pushed into contact with the fresh powder.

I'd even go so far as to say that embers happen fairly often (in cruddy bores), but usually  burn themselves out quickly enough to not cause a problem.  The old practice of blowing down the bore was all about burning that ember out, as well as softening the fouling for the next loading.  

If you've seen the static electricity and black powder experiments, then you've seen how black powder does not automatically go POOF instantly anytime there is ever a spark (contrary to all the tales, wives or otherwise).  

ALSO on that note, when BP seems to go POOF with zero provocation I blame it on BP DUST.  Because fine dust has been (and continues to be) the cause of explosion of many grain elevators and manufacturing facilities (even pasta mfg facilities) since the beginning of the industrial age*.  Logical to me that if dust is allowed to accumulate as it might, in a horn or such after some use, then a bit of static would be plenty for ignition.  (*See: grain elevator explosion, mining accidents, dust explosion etc.)

[Daryl]

Hadn't thought of the dust possibility - certainly something is happening that isn't being explained and pushing crud down into the breech where it can compact and become a heat holding mass over time, is a definite possibility.  Chunk shooter's I've read somewhere - maybe here seem to be in disfavour of the cap ignition system as their constant wiping pushes $#@* down into the ignition channels which can cause ignition problems - yes- think that was mentioned here at ALR- whereas the flinters didn't give that problem due to the side vent, not the patent breech system. Yes- wiping too much seems to be a definite possibility.

[WadePatton]

Hey but also, i don't mean to confuse the issues.  My reference to dust is about powder flasks explosions, apparently from static-as i have seen one of those reported here. With specific reference to the static/powder ignition testing video-which used nice clean fresh kernels of powder. 

In that regard, I fully believe that dust fine enough to float in the air (contained in the vessel) could very well be ignited by static.  (As happens in dusty mfg plants with some regularity-with "less flammable" materials.)

I'm of the crud accumulation/ember belief with regard to (WRT) the loading incidents. 

And that a no-wiping-needed combo should be the goal of every load development exercise, for accuracy/consistency, convenience, AND safety.   

[Candle Snuffer]

Hadn't thought of the dust possibility - certainly something is happening that isn't being explained and pushing crud down into the breech where it can compact and become a heat holding mass over time, is a definite possibility.  Chunk shooter's I've read somewhere - maybe here seem to be in disfavour of the cap ignition system as their constant wiping pushes $#@* down into the ignition channels which can cause ignition problems - yes- think that was mentioned here at ALR- whereas the flinters didn't give that problem due to the side vent, not the patent breech system. Yes- wiping too much seems to be a definite possibility.

I think (if I remember correctly and would have to go back into my Muzzle Blast issues to confirm) that the Bevel brothers used flint ignition.  Makes complete sense to me when chunk shooting to use a flintlock.

[Lutes]

Candle Snuffer why do you reference chunk shooting and not all type of shooting. Just curious? 

[Candle Snuffer]

All shooting disciplines, not just chunk.  Should have added that.

[mbush50]

So, I have been following along OK in this topic and now if I read Candle Snuffer thinks that only flintlocks should be used in shooting competitions? Is that correct?

Michael

[Daryl]

Not what he said at all.  He merely suggested it made sense for all disciplines that flint would possibly give fewer problems than caplocks.
That's how I read it.

[Kenny]

Very interesting conversation, Question,... I was taught in the early seventies to blow down the barrel between shots. I used this up until I found this site in 2011 and read several " horrific stories about this practice.  I never had a problem. Was this a practice from, say 1770 or so, or was it something someone came up with in the 1970`s? Be gentle, I am " New to this site" 

[Dphariss]

Very interesting conversation, Question,... I was taught in the early seventies to blow down the barrel between shots. I used this up until I found this site in 2011 and read several " horrific stories about this practice.  I never had a problem. Was this a practice from, say 1770 or so, or was it something someone came up with in the 1970`s? Be gentle, I am " New to this site" 

Its nearly impossible to shoot any number of shots in the west when the humidity is low without either blowing or wiping.

Blowing in the bore far predates my experience. It is stylized in some Hollywood films but in real life it serves a purpose.]
That someone trys to blow through a barrel of a firearm that has missed fire? Well people need to pay more attention. Its the same thing as reading a newspaper so intently as to step in front of a moving bus, texting while driving and hitting a train or rear ending semi.  How about having a baby on a seat on a bicycle? I can make a case for this being fatal to the kid, like squished completely flat when the mother lost her balance and the baby fell under the duals of a loaded belly dump. Does this mean all babies should be banned from bicycles? IMO yes if riding along side automobile traffic. My boss told me the truck driver quit driving truck after this...
I and thousands, perhaps 10s of thousands of others have blown down barrels probably since at least the 1820s when people really started moving into the great American Desert.  Hundreds of thousands of repetitions. I had never heard of an accident until I read of it here.
Now would I blow down the fired barrel of a double barrel (and I shoot a swivel breech pretty often) when one barrel is loaded? No. The availability of better powder has also reduced the need for this. But I still do it at times. But its pointless if doing load development when the first shot is to be fired from a clean barrel as for hunting. So I wipe it pretty clean then relaod. This also lets the barrel temp drop.
But an empty gun is no more dangerous than a megaphone or a soda straw unless someone is so enthusiastic as to chip their teeth.
Oh yes, when I wipe between shots I generally pull air through the vent toward the muzzle to assure its open.
Its a choice. If hunting and no time to wipe and its 80+ and the humidity is low double digits? The hunter better blow down the barrel. If in Alabama or Iowa and the humidity is just short of London in the fog? Getting it loaded is not an issue.
Dan

[Bob Roller]

Take a deep breath and blow ACROSS the muzzle of the just fired gun.
That will create a vacuum and evacuate the bore. Placing my mouth over
the barrel of a just fired rifle is still nothing I will do even though it's obvious
that it can't be fired or fire on its own.The wet patch sounds good to me.

Bob Roller

[mountainman70]

After a 20 year hiatus from club range shooting,in 2010 when I started back with the guys,I was accustomed to doing this,but got squared away quickly,and then told what happened.I'm with you,Dan.But ,fellers,seems like our ol friend Common Sense went an runt off.I dont blow down the barl no more,but I can ,and have,blow up an onion bag!!!lol,theres a real story in that statement.Dave

[Mike R]

In the latest Muzzleloader mag there is an article by an experienced shooter that details his recent experience of a premature discharge as he was pouring powder into the barrel  from his measure--the blast blew the measure out of his hand and burned him.  A spark must have been in the bore somewhere.  That is why we canoneers ALWAYS wet swab between shots [our results would be more deadly if a premature ignition happened].  On the range I also usually wet patch between shots, although I admit that that has resulted in pressing crud into the touchhole area a few times.  I do not blow into barrels, however, despite many of my mentors doing so back in the 70s.

[Robby]

Some years ago there was a video going around that showed a young man ramming home a powder charge into what looked like a Parrot cannon during a re-enactment. apparently it was not swabbed first and it blew the ram rod and his arm somewhere off camera.
Robin

[Hungry Horse]

 Artillery differs from a muzzleloading rifle, or pistol, in that artillery is rarely loaded with loose powder. So, that being said, it is much more likely to produce a premature fire, because there is a distinct possibility that part of the cartridge material could remain in the breech, and ignite the next load.  This is why you so often see artillery cartridges made from aluminum foil today. It is also why there are specific procedures ( wet mop) required at most events where artillery is used. This is a good reason to be extra careful when using paper cartridges, or combustible cartridges.
 The only breech plugs I have pulled that have lots of crud on them possibly capable of holding a spark, either had a large notch in the plug face, or the plug face had obviously not been polished before installation.

                       Hungry Horse

[Vomitus]

 Just tighten up your combination and use a sloppy spit patch...and no need to blow or swab. And,it's safe. Packing all that wiping $#@* isn't needed. It takes some effort to load a tight combo. You can't push the load down with a thumb and forefinger like they do in Hoolyweed. I push the load down in 6-8 inch increments,no big deal. I get superb accuracy with this practice,both rifle and smoothie. Thicken up those patches,boys! 

[Vomitus]

  I stand to be corrected but, don't cannons shoot bare balls?

[Mike R]

  I stand to be corrected but, don't cannons shoot bare balls?

Yes [except grape or cannister loads].  The possibility of sparks remains because of the powder being loaded as either cloth or foil cartridges--and pieces of the cartridge remain in the bore after firing.  The bore is then wormed to remove remains of the cartridge and wet swabbed to kill any sparks.  people have been killed or seriously maimed who did not follow safe worming/swabbing drill.  One of my mentors in artillery had only a partial right hand [palm and thumb] because of a poor worm/swab run when the next rammed  powder bag broke and exploded--sending the shattered rammer and a big ball of flaming gases through his hand as he rammed.  He also caught fire from the extensive fireball at the muzzle and had burns as well as rammer shards stuck in his chest, etc....not something to fool around with.  WE practice/drill SAFE loading procedures with our cannon --a 10 pounder Parrot.  After 1000s of rounds fired we have had no accidents.  Mike Nesbitts' accident [Muzzleloader mag] shows that it CAN happen with plain ol' rifle loading too.  Sparks can stay alive in a bore under rapid shooting/reloading episodes. Fortunately for Mike he was not ramming, just pouring from a measure when it went off--also fortunate that he was not pouring from a horn!