Author Topic: Canoe Gun  (Read 24020 times)

fishlein

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Canoe Gun
« on: February 23, 2017, 06:17:39 PM »
I recently completed a 20 flint fowler with 42 inch barrel like my 7X Great Grandfather would have maybe carried around Virginia back in 1750 or so. It's fun but a little long for some applications up here in the Minnesota woods. I think next up is a "canoe gun" with a 24 inch barrel. Any good resources out there to give me ideas for historical references?

I know I can just cut down a fowler or trade gun but would like to see old examples.

Thanks!

Online rich pierce

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2017, 07:13:17 PM »
Native Americans in the canoe- centered fur trade of the north demanded long guns. But build and use what you want and have fun with it.

A historically supported short smoothbore is a cavalry carbine. Several are illustrated in "Of Sorts for Provincials" by Jim Mullins. I'm wanting to build one of those!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 07:17:41 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline Ken Prather

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2017, 08:03:09 PM »
I carry a 46 inch barreled fowling piece and have taken pheasant and hit clays with it regularly. I also do pretty well with a patched roundball. its light, swings nice and hits what I point it at.

But if I were wanting a sawed off version for historical purposes, I'd go for a trade gun and cut it back to 30" inches so it looked like it was cut down due to a mishap of some kind.
Good luck.
K
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2017, 08:28:08 PM »
I agree with Ken but for a different reason. The shortest barrel length offered in a North West trade gun was thirty inches. I would say it is nearly as handy as a "blanket gunner" or "canoe gun" and you don't have to justify it the all the correctness junkies. I owned a 30" barreled trade gun for years, and loved it. I feel the shorter versions tend to  tempt you to lean over the barrel when loading, which is very dangerous.

  Hungry horse

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2017, 09:30:46 PM »
I recently completed a 20 flint fowler with 42 inch barrel like my 7X Great Grandfather would have maybe carried around Virginia back in 1750 or so. It's fun but a little long for some applications up here in the Minnesota woods. I think next up is a "canoe gun" with a 24 inch barrel. Any good resources out there to give me ideas for historical references?

I know I can just cut down a fowler or trade gun but would like to see old examples.

Thanks!
Canoe guns have no historical context. There were no guns purpose built for using whilst  paddling a canoe.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

fishlein

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2017, 09:47:43 PM »
Let me clarify. I understand that a "canoe gun" is not historically verified or supported as "new manufacture." That being said, it appears that at least some experts say that short barreled trade guns [or whatever] did exist, most likely as after-the-fact modifications.

I love my long barrel fowler - swings nice, points nice, etc. But my Labrador often leads me deep into northern Minnesota aspen/alder/dogwood thickets/beaver ponds where the wood ducks, woodcock and grouse live. A shorter barrel would be more practical in these situations and I can easily imagine a fur trapper or native thinking the same thing 300 or 400 years ago. And putting thoughts into actual gun modifications.

Thanks for the comments - and please continue on.

Mike

Offline Daryl

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2017, 10:32:31 PM »
My 31" Hunkeler 1/2 stock swings like a boss and does very well on clay birds.  Out to 30 or so yards, it also shoots well with round balls.






« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 03:33:46 PM by Tim Crosby »
Daryl

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fishlein

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2017, 10:57:55 PM »
Sweet looking gun!

Offline Shovelbuck

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2017, 11:19:26 PM »
Here's a pic of a very short trade gun at Fort Kearney, in Nebraska. I want to go back and ask the curator if it can be taken out of the display for better pics and measurements.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 03:34:17 PM by Tim Crosby »
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Online rich pierce

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2017, 11:19:57 PM »
Mike, you asked for historical references. We got confused. If you are looking for good historical references on trade guns let us know. Basically pick a historical design and cut it off wherever you want.
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Offline Ken Prather

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 11:33:49 PM »
I think Mike's point was that most short trade gun originals seem to have been cut off due to barrel damage or adjusted by the user---and not made that way by the original gunmaker. A convincing repro would have the ramrod thimbles and barrel pins in the right place for a long gun? They would not be aligned properly for the shorter length. Also the barrel would have a different geometry at the muzzle due to being cut off? Also I wonder if many of them might not even have a front sight? Hard to tell in the museum pic above.

I am not any kind of expert but I always was under the impression that anything above 26" barrel length is long enough to efficiently burn a charge of powder? But shorter than 26" barrels can be under powered-- more like a pistol? Am I right?

K
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 11:38:21 PM by Ken Prather »
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Online rich pierce

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2017, 12:01:22 AM »
Efficiency depends on charge as well as barrel length. Plenty of halfstock percussion rifles have 30-34" barrels. Velocity isn't everything with a muzzleloader. There are percussion double barrel shotguns with 30-32" barrels too.
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Offline Ken Prather

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 12:20:47 AM »
Yep I think anything above 26" will act like a long gun. Anything under 26" will be a bit more like a pistol.
Galations 2:20

fishlein

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 12:22:02 AM »
Thanks for the pictures and clarifications. I have Tom Grinslade's book on flint fowlers. It was helpful in picking a design for my fowler. Does a similar historical resource exist for flintlock "trade guns" - a single book or two that shows variations of the French and English ones over time?


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2017, 12:27:12 AM »
Thanks for the pictures and clarifications. I have Tom Grinslade's book on flint fowlers. It was helpful in picking a design for my fowler. Does a similar historical resource exist for flintlock "trade guns" - a single book or two that shows variations of the French and English ones over time?
Check TOTW's book section, I believe I have several books on trade guns I bought there.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2017, 12:32:35 AM »
Yep I think anything above 26" will act like a long gun. Anything under 26" will be a bit more like a pistol.


The time span would also  be important as far as powder burning capability was concerned.  Prior to about 1820 much of the powder was serpentine powder, was it not? - mixture of ingredients.  About 1820, there was a switch to more highly refined powder in the military, which is where most civilian stores on the frontier would be obtained. (just speculation)
Prior to about 1820, military ctg. in the US was 165gr. of mil-spec powder (included priming) with a .64" ball, for the .69 cal. muskets, which ran about .69 to .70 cal.  After 1820 or thereabouts, the charge was dropped to 135gr. which included priming, with an increased ball size to .65". The first .69 cal. Caplock musket was the model 1842.
I would surmise that after about 1820, shorter barreled guns would perform better than those pre-1820.
Of course, how well would a smoothbore perform in any barrel length - close-range guns that they were.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2017, 01:38:05 AM »
I had a 24" barrel on a 20 gauge canoe gun once.  I shot very well indeed with 65 grains of 3fg.  Anything over that was decidedly unpleasant to shoot because the very light weight of the gun.  Go with the 30" trade gun.

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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2017, 02:12:00 AM »
  When I first joined ALR that was my first question. Got chewed on just a tag. Since then I built a canoe gun with a 24 inch 62 cal. Sweet handling gun in a Michigan swamp.  Also acquired a barrel with all the proof marks of European make according to some experts. It to has a 24 inch barrel. I sold it to a fellow at the Tennessee show last April he was very glad to get it. So now I'm all confused. I now call  my gun a swamp gun. No sense in insulting a canoe. Right..... Oldtravler

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2017, 03:21:28 AM »
I had a 24" barrel on a 20 gauge canoe gun once.  I shot very well indeed with 65 grains of 3fg.  Anything over that was decidedly unpleasant to shoot because the very light weight of the gun.  Go with the 30" trade gun.

Mole Eyes
No you didn't, you were hallucinating because they never existed....just a figment of your imagination. ;)
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2017, 05:33:23 AM »
I think in 1763 some of Chief Pontiac's guys entered Fort Detroit with guns cut down so as to hide them under their blankets. Didn't work out for him.

Efficient barrel length? I have an original flint British Paget carbine, which I suspect came into the Port of Wilmington through the blockade some years back. It is .65 caliber with an original length 14 inch barrel.  Guess the Brits thought that OK for their cavalry.

It is just my charming personality, I suppose, but I'd be inclined to ignore all those who say     ". . .never existed" 

Me, I'd pick the trade gun of choice & saw it off to suit. My 14" barrel carbine loaded with one large round ball can do quite a job on one's (unprotected) left ear.

Yeah, I was still Immortal when I shot it.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2017, 05:44:34 AM »
Also built a somewhat inauthentic Northwest Trade gun using a 24" (left over piece) rifled barrel. Canoeing down one Michigan river it conveniently put a ball through an overhanging wasp nest. Heard a lot of yelling by some following canoes.

Miss that gun. Sold it but kept the Roller lock I had on it.

Oh, yeah, Mr. Brooks sorry, didn't Get It you were kidding about "didn't exist"

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2017, 02:38:06 PM »
This is a very fatiguing subject...... ::)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2017, 10:04:18 PM »
   Mike you got to get out more. There's another short gun at Fort Michlimacinau. Seems dim Native Americans are sneaky. Two hundred years ago they missed that fine print that said you can't have this gun. Right J.C.Kelly.       Oldtravler

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2017, 04:06:32 PM »
Hey, I went 90 miles away from the New Liberty Compound yesterday....a bold trip indeed.  The whole point I'm trying to make is they didn't purpose build guns that short for canoeing. I've seen all sorts of cut down guns, but I guarantee you some bumpkin didn't take his NW gun with it's 48" barrel and lop it off just so he could paddle a canoe. I've been completely amazed that modern man has forgotten how to load a gun with a 4' barrel in a canoe...... :o
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online rich pierce

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Re: Canoe Gun
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2017, 05:55:59 PM »
Back to good sources for information on original trade guns: unfortunately there are no books on trade guns that are great for the builder.  T.M Hamilton's Colonial Frontier Guns is a sort of flowing together of articles and pictures of dug up gun parts, period reports, restored guns, and information on gun flints.  There's a lot in there but someone looking for dimensions or plans or anything that would help them do a good job on a build from pictures is going to find it far from satisfying.

The book "The French Trade Gun in North America" by Kevin Gladysz is a similar mix of period records for historical context but is better organized and offers multiple views of originals.

I don't like relying on vendor's catalogues and kit offerings for historical correctness unless they document their research, but you may decide to go there.  The Rifle Shoppe bases their kits and parts on originals and you may be able to get a catalogue from them.

Almost all French trade guns were stocked in European walnut. Beware vendors selling kits with curly maple stocks. Pretty but you'd have to surmise a re-stock of a gun here in the colonies. English trade guns were usually walnut stocked except for the lower grades (type G) stocked in beech. Far as I know all "Northwest guns" were walnut stocked.
Andover, Vermont