Double balling

[MuskratMike]

Has anyone or does anyone "double ball" when hunting bear or any dangerous game. From what I've read there is no danger as long as the second ball sits directly on top of the first ball. I would think the second ball would be patched also to prevent it from moving forward when carrying the rifle. I ask this as I accidentally "doubled balled" at the range. I went ahead and shot it at the target and to my surprise there were two holes exactly where I aimed and they were less than an inch apart. I would think putting two balls into the vitals of a bear is much better than one ball. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[oldtravler61]

 My opinion it's just a disaster waiting to happen. I've never done it. Have no reason to do it. Put the ball in the boiler room and you will have your dead bear. Other may refute my opinion an thats fine.   Oldtravler

[smylee grouch]

I have been lucky and over the years have taken 11 bears, all with one ball. Two would make me uneasy and I would probably miss or hit him in the wrong spot. 

[bob in the woods]

This topic has come up before.  There are many different replies that are probably in the archives. That said, 2 balls = more mass/weight = less velocity.  Up the powder charge to compensate and your pressure goes up. I heard of people shooting double ball loads, but there are inherent dangers which I'm sure are now common knowledge. My feeling is that if you think you need two balls in a hunting load, you would be much better off shooting a single larger cal.ball...ie get a bigger gun 

[rich pierce]

This topic has come up before.  There are many different replies that are probably in the archives.  My feeling is that if you think you need two balls in a hunting load, you would be much better off shooting a single larger cal.ball...ie get a bigger gun 

Agree.  If you’re going for black bear I’m not sure 2 balls with lower velocity would be better anyway.

[Davemuzz]

Just knowing the ballistic properties from reloading everything from handgun to rifle tells me that (as mentioned above) if you put more mass\weight in front of a charge of powder, you will increase pressure as it takes more force to move the heavier projectile down the tube.

That being said, with the proper amount of powder behind a heavier projectile, pressure will be within safe guidelines.....however the heavier projectile will have less velocity than a lighter one. OTOH, the heavier projectile will have more energy up to a given distance.

Now, if your loading a "split projectile" my best guess would be your going to have two projectiles of the same weight, traveling at less velocity than you would with one projectile of the same weight. And because you have two separate chunks of lead......your going to have less energy no matter what point of distance those two chunks of lead are at.....vs shooting one chunk of lead.

Bottom line is.....shooting one projectile will give you more energy downrange than loading two balls ever will.

MHO

[smylee grouch]

This topic has come up before.  There are many different replies that are probably in the archives. That said, 2 balls = more mass/weight = less velocity.  Up the powder charge to compensate and your pressure goes up. I heard of people shooting double ball loads, but there are inherent dangers which I'm sure are now common knowledge. My feeling is that if you think you need two balls in a hunting load, you would be much better off shooting a single larger cal.ball...ie get a bigger gun 

  Exactly Bob, well said. 

[Marcruger]

Mike,

I think you just got lucky on the balls printing close together on target. I note that you didn't state the distance shot. 

Ponder doing the same with most any firearm.  Using the same charge, double the bullet weight.  Would you want to bet it would hit anywhere near the original point-of-aim?  I wouldn't.  In fact, I'd bet big money it would print far, far away from a normal load. 

Obviously, with the same powder charge, you'll get greatly reduced velocity for each ball.  If each ball impacts slightly apart, which they will, you'll get much less penetration with each ball at a slower speed. You'll get LESS penetration, not more.  A single projectile that is heavier usually does give deeper penetration than a lighter one, given a reasonable velocity at impact. 

Recall that kinetic energy is Ek=1/2MVsquared.  Velocity is squared.  So energy is highly dependent on velocity.  By reducing your velocity with two balls, your energy overall goes way down. 

If you try to add powder with two balls, you are risking too high pressures.  I also think accuracy at any range will be sporadic with two projectiles. 

If you need more power downrange, you need a bigger bore firearm. 

Buck and Ball loads were used in the day, but were often shot at a line of RedCoats where accuracy and penetration weren't at a premium.  I guess the same held true with shooting a smoothbore at a deer at close range in heavy woods. 

Hope this helps.   God Bless,   Marc


 

[Turtle]

 I am not recommending this, but we used to have a shoot where 2 teams competed to see who could cut a post in two first. many competitors double balled or shot buck and ball loads with no problem. It always scared me and I didn't do it. I have proofed guns I built with a double ball heavy load though.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is what can happen if the second ball 'hydraulics' back up the bore after you thought it was seated on the first.  And for what gain?










No one was seriously injured, by the Grace of God, and we never did find the hammer.

[louieparker]

Taylor, Now that's scary ! Was the shooter hurt bad ? LP
 

[louieparker]

Taylor I missed your last line..  He was one lucky dude.

[Elnathan]

I believe the FBI or similar body did some research into the effectiveness of buckshot loads, and came to the conclusion that multiple projectiles striking simultaneously were effective all out of proportion to the size and weight of the projectiles involved  - something to do with the way that nervous system responded to multiple wounds. Unfortunately, I can't find anything on the study just now, but based on what I have heard/read I do think it is indeed possible that two balls traveling at a lower velocity might be more effective than a single ball at higher velocity.

I think that there are good reasons not to try the double ball idea - safety and accuracy - but I don't think that the effectiveness of a load is a simple matter of how much energy it has at time of impact.

[Daryl]

For hunting bears- black bears from 250pounds up to 850 pounds (Haida Gwaii), I would be inclined to suggest building or buying a .54 or larger rifle. A .45 or .50 would likely do, but I like bigger balls for potentially dangerous game. I would not have any hesitation in shooting a 600 pound or larger bear, of any make, if using my .69 cal. rifle.
My .36 and .50 are for small game and rendezvous shooting.  When it comes to hunting large game, I believe in going big, thus .54 and up.  A close friend of mine uses a .75.
Now THAT's a big game rifle that works decisively on moose, elk and bear.

[hanshi]

Whenever I think a single ball from a gun might not be enough, I get a bigger gun.

[WadePatton]

It's not legal in my state for hunting.

And as you've seen here, it's frowned upon from a safety perspective. If you persist in the notion, you want to put both balls down at the same time to avoid creating a pressurized air pocket between them.

I expect you put those you shot down singly and maybe there was enough leakage past your front ball/patch combo to prevent any separation as one could get with a snugger combo. 

But I'm not doing it.  I trust my rifle and skills with a single, and far less opportunity to blow it all to kindling and fire-poker. 

Best of luck with whatever you do. 

[MuskratMike]

Thank you to all who posted me on this. I never was recommending people do this. I just fired the double balls once and that was after making sure they were tight together with my range rod. Now after seeing the problems and well thought evidence if I ever find I have for some reason double balled a load I do have a ball puller that works well. It just goes to show don't talk with people while reloading your rifle at a shoot or at the range.

[Anonymous]

Concern was always having a gap between the balls.  Have been told, although have never seen it myself, that early on the Thompson Center manual showed double ball loads. Oldest manual that I have is from 1979 - and it does not show any double loads. Guy I know that has used double ball load (50 cal) for years puts a felt wad over the powder and another one between the balls. As WadePatton previously suggested, he too loads them together to avoid an air pocket between them. Accuracy he gets at the range is pretty impressive, with both balls hitting within an inch or two of each other at 50 yards. Don’t know if it helps or hurts, but he has killed a lot of deer and one blackbear that I know of with that load.

Personally, I have the option of going up to 54, 58 or 62 if I felt under gunned, although if you compare roundball velocity at say 75 or 100 yards, you will find little difference there no matter what the MV. Chart I have shows a 530 grain 54 cal Maxiball (two 54 cal roundballs would weight 460 grains) over 120 gr of ff MV of 1400 FPS. A single 54 cal round ball over the same charge showing a MV of just under 2000 FPS. Using a ballistics calculator at 100 yards the round ball with a MV of 2000 FPS will be at 1080, while the one with the 1400 FPS MV will be at 940 FPS. A difference of only 140 FPS.  At 75 yards, velocity difference is about 200 FPS (1217 vs 1008).  All theoretical, would require  real data to mean anything.  If  accurate, could be effective.  Just not my choice.

[bob in the woods]

Historically speaking, my findings re multiple projectiles etc are usually related to warfare.  Large game is an entirely different matter. I've shot a lot of bears with my .62 and 10 bore, all loaded with a single round ball. They are extraordinarily effective.  When the Hawken craze was in full bloom here back in the J. Johnson and The Mountain Men movie days, I hunted with a .54 Hawken loaded with the heavy slugs promoted at the time. Performance was less than spectacular.  Since switching to round balls, I haven't lost an animal. The larger the ball, the better. Sometimes I'll opt for a hardened ball, [ W.Weight ]  but I wouldn't hesitate to take on just about anything in N.A. with my 10 bore, loaded with 140 gr of Ffg and a single round ball...within range of course      A double ball load is more hazardous I.M.O. than a buck and ball load.  Actually, the idea of double ball use may have been what lead to what I've heard called a sugar loaf bullet....looks like two balls joined at the waist.

[Herb]

Mr. Marcruger, you'd lose your big money big time betting that double ball loads would "print far, far away from a normal load'.  Carole was a deer hunter but no longer had the hand strength to load her .50  Thompson Center.  She asked me to build a .40 flintlock that she could shoot.  She liked it and wanted to hunt deer with it, but the ball weight of about 90 grains is not legal in Utah, has to be at least 170 grains for deer.  I could not find a suitable conical in .40 caliber then. A game warden friend, Chad, suggesting using a double ball load.  Here is Carole's rifle I built with a 12 inch length of pull, 36 inch barrel.  The eagles are copper and the silver is sterling.

She wanted four hearts (for her family) as a thumb inlay and I threw in a Monarch butterfly.

She was known as "Eagle Lady".  Here a test target with Swiss 2F.

I tested double ball loads in my ,40 Jacob Wigle I built.  I seated one patched ball and then ran another patched ball down on it.  Never had any air compression problem.  I found that the double ball load lost about 450 fps over the single ball load.  This was not enough velocity for deer hunting, so I doubled the load to get up to hunting velocity. 

The top left target is 70 grains of Goex 3F, velocity is 2201 fps with 36 fps spread.  The target below it was shot with double patched balls and gave 1765 fps with a 9 fps spread and cut the group size in half.

The middle top target is 70 grains of Swiss 3F (same bulk measure, not weight) at 2361 fps/40 fps spread.  The target below it is with the same powder and charge but double patched balls at 1863 fps/15 fps.  The second pair went wild, the only time I had that happen, but the first pair went through the same hole and the third pair hit about an inch apart.

Top right target is with 70 grains (bulk measure) of Swiss 2F and went 2271 fps/41.  Bottom right target is the same but with double patched balls and went 1784 fps/18 spread, and is about a third tighter.

Carole killed a mule deer buck with the 70 grains of Goex 3F double ball load, at about 70 yards.

This double ball loading was to meet a specific need, having a legal ball weight for deer hunting.  We recognized the danger of shooting separated double ball loads. and Carole did not do it again.  Carl had me build her a .50 fullstock flintlock to her fit, for their 50th wedding anniversary.  I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOUBLE BALL LOADS AND ADVISE ANYONE CONSIDERING IT NOT TO DO IT.  If you must, be very sure both balls are down.  The double balls do not equal the weight of a  conical, which are shown in Lyman's handbook with powder charges equal to the maximum shown with a single round ball.  But if those balls separate in the bore- as shown by Taylor- the rifle can be ruined.  George out here was doing the "cut the 2x4" in a race at a rendezvous, using double balls.  He destroyed his rifle.

[rfd]

for all the above reasons, i don't and won't double ball. 

i use my .62 if the game hunted warranted big medicine.

[HelmutKutz]

History is plentiful with multiple ball and buck & ball loadings as well as grape and chain shot. Loading should be performed in the same manner as bird or buck shot in a fowler where the components are stacked at the muzzle and seated as a single unit. Doing such avoids the trapping of air between components.

[hanshi]

In every state I've hunted in a double ball is illegal; one projectile only is legal.  A dbl ball load does not seem to be a consistent performer and is therefore not my cup of tea.  Anyone who tries a double ball should understand the risk and act accordingly.

Herb, that's a beautiful little .40 you built for her.

[HelmutKutz]

In every state I've hunted in a double ball is illegal; one projectile only is legal.  A dbl ball load does not seem to be a consistent performer and is therefore not my cup of tea.  Anyone who tries a double ball should understand the risk and act accordingly.

Herb, that's a beautiful little .40 you built for her.

I question to that which you base the statement of inconsistent performance upon. I have witnessed many double and triple ball loads as well as buck and ball loads print very consistent patterns. The loads must be tuned according to each gun. It is not uncommon to obtain triple ball groups of 200mm at 60m from a smoothbore and less from double ball in a rifle. Where permitted, these are excellent for dangerous game like boar.
HK

[hanshi]

I question to that which you base the statement of inconsistent performance upon. I have witnessed many double and triple ball loads as well as buck and ball loads print very consistent patterns. The loads must be tuned according to each gun. It is not uncommon to obtain triple ball groups of 200mm at 60m from a smoothbore and less from double ball in a rifle. Where permitted, these are excellent for dangerous game like boar.
HK

As Herb mentioned above, one of the dbl loads shot wild.  Even if this happens only once in a while, it's "inconsistent" in my opinion.  Add to that the illegality of a double ball in many jurisdictions along with the risk of damage (to shooter & gun) and it puts the risk of dbl ball loads fairly close to that of pouring a main charge directly from the horn.  I've killed lots of deer and none took more than one shot.  Few ran even 50 - 75 yards and most didn't run.  One ball did this nicely from my .45s.  If I had a doubt, I'd use a bigger gun.