Author Topic: Coil Worms?  (Read 5244 times)

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Coil Worms?
« on: November 29, 2019, 09:22:09 PM »
Recently I have become familiar with coil, or spring, style worms. These are a simple affair, as the name suggests they take the form of a metal wire wound into a helical shape. This can then be attached to the bare end of rammer or wiping stick and a hank of tow attached thusly. It is then swabbed about the piece’s bore to give it a cleaning. I present a photograph of the general appearance of these items:



Is any member here familiar with such implements? I do believe they are “period”, and it seems a simple and straightforward method. I wonder how well they work? Where might one obtain a smaller sized one for use in a .40 caliber?

-Smokey

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19523
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2019, 09:24:58 PM »
Common in the percussion era. They work well especially for pulling out a patch left behind.
Andover, Vermont

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2019, 10:43:00 PM »
I only clean with tow, but I use a threaded tow worm.  One of their "advantages" is that they have two points rather than one. Some guys around here make them. 

I would not be afraid to use a "threadless" type as you show, if'n it fit my rammer properly snug. 
Hold to the Wind

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2019, 11:33:58 PM »
Common in the percussion era. They work well especially for pulling out a patch left behind.

Could they be used successfully with tow to swab the bore once it becomes fouled from shooting?

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2019, 11:38:49 PM »
I've had one for a long time and it sees occasional use.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2019, 02:40:19 AM »
do believe they are “period”, and it seems a simple and straightforward method. I wonder how well they work? Where might one obtain a smaller sized one for use in a .40 caliber?

-Smokey

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/587/2/WORM-PR-S

This one is steel, which might not be as good as brass, but you could snip off the largest coil or two and make this one fit. Alternatively, you could always get a piece of brass wire, 28 gauge or so, and wind it around a nail (a bit smaller than your desired final diameter to allow for spring back). I know that you are adverse to making things, but this is about as simple a project as I can imagine.

As for how they work, I couldn't say - I own one of Track's, but haven't ever used it.

Period to when?
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2019, 08:30:46 PM »
"once it becomes fouled from shooting?"........when does that happen?  I am unfamiliar with this phenomenon.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2019, 08:34:54 PM »
Although these might work for a light job, I'd be afraid of it coming off the end of the rod while in the bore...then what do you do?
I prefer the double tyned worm.  At a rendezvous, a friend was cleaning someone else's severely fouled bore with a wire brush, and the threads stripped off the brass end of the brush, leaving it at the breech end of the barrel.  How to extract it, without removing the breech plug?  I ran my .50 cal worm down the barrel on a steel rod and the tynes wrapped themselves around the shank of the brush...out she came.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2019, 08:37:15 PM »
"once it becomes fouled from shooting?"........when does that happen?  I am unfamiliar with this phenomenon.

Do you use tight patches and balk combos, do use use good lube, etc.?

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2019, 12:42:59 AM »
Although these might work for a light job, I'd be afraid of it coming off the end of the rod while in the bore...then what do you do?
I prefer the double tyned worm.  At a rendezvous, a friend was cleaning someone else's severely fouled bore with a wire brush, and the threads stripped off the brass end of the brush, leaving it at the breech end of the barrel.  How to extract it, without removing the breech plug?  I ran my .50 cal worm down the barrel on a steel rod and the tynes wrapped themselves around the shank of the brush...out she came.

Interesting. I’ve read a few people who use these coil types. They claim that they work on the same scientific method as a Chinese finger trap. That is, when one pulls on the coil, it tightens up and grips the ramrod more the harder it is tugged.

Still scary to imagine it coming off in the bore, though.

Offline Mike_StL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2019, 03:36:14 AM »
If you fear the coil coming off, then tie a string to the coil.  When it comes off, it can easily be retrieved by pulling the string.  Since the ramrod is no longer wedging the tow against the barrel, the tow and the coil are loose in the bore.

Offline Notchy Bob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2019, 04:54:25 AM »
These coil worms were offered to native people during the fur trade.  They were quite common, both for their intended use as gunworms, but also as hair ornaments.  I recall that in Ken Brain's Tunica Treasure, he described excavating a grave, wherein numerous "metal coils" were found around the skull.  Carl Russell also described the use of coiled gunworms for hair ornaments in Guns on the Early Frontier.

They were also used as gunworms.  You can find good information about them in Russell's book (referenced above) as well as in Gooding's book about trade guns of the Hudson's Bay Company.  I think there might be a brief reference in Wheeler's A Toast to the Fur Trade.

So, I could be wrong, but I think of these coil worms as cheap goods traded to the natives. 

I bought a couple of them a while back and experimented with them some.  I shared Mr. Sapergia's concern regarding the possibility of one coming off down in the bore.  The solution to that problem was to put it on a rod that was big enough to make a really tight fit.  However, believe it or not, the problem was then in getting the dang thing off!  I ended up destroying the worm in trying to get it off my ramrod (which was just wood, with no metal ferrule).  I believe the native hunters probably carried a separate wiping stick with the worm more or less permanently attached, in addition to the ramrod carried in its pipes under the forend of the gun.  There is a wonderful illustration of an Assiniboine hunter named "Nothing But Gunpowder," by Karl Bodmer, which shows the man carrying an extra rod.  And, if you look carefully at the upper end of that rod which is laid over his shoulder, you'll see a plump tuft of something fibrous.

I researched the use of crossed sticks as gun rests a while back, and found numerous references to Indians using wiping sticks, or sometimes "crossed gunsticks," for this purpose.  I believe this practice continued well into the cartridge era.  There is a very well known photograph of Geronimo holing two straight wooden sticks in his hand with his trapdoor carbine.

Anyway, we know these coil worms were traded to the Indians.  I know from personal experience that if you put one on a rod tight enough to keep it from pulling off, you'll have to pay the devil to get it off.  I have concluded that the native hunters probably attached the worm permanently to a separate wiping stick. And, for practical use, I would more likely use one of the excellent (and period correct) two-tined worms with a threaded shank to screw into the end of my ramrod ferrule.  Mr. Fruth has these offered for sale elsewhere on this forum.

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2019, 07:42:37 AM »
I’ve thought about the traditional ramrod tips and ferrules, but I wouldn’t know how to attach the ferrule to the ramrod. I have a 3/8” ramrod gun in .40 caliber. I’ve had a heck of a time finding the correct old style tapered ferrule that will fit a 3/8” ramrod and have no clue where to find the authentic style tow work and ball puller that’ll fit my bore.

 I live a semi-nomadic lifestyle being in the military and do not have the drill presses, lathes, etc. that most members here, nor much experience in this sort of thing.

I figured even a retard like me could sand down the end of a rammer and stick on one of the coils. I just want to avoid the modern style jags as I’m going 100% period correct or as close as humanly possible.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 07:47:05 AM by Smokey Plainsman »

Offline Mike from OK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2019, 08:05:37 AM »
I’ve thought about the traditional ramrod tips and ferrules, but I wouldn’t know how to attach the ferrule to the ramrod. I have a 3/8” ramrod gun in .40 caliber. I’ve had a heck of a time finding the correct old style tapered ferrule that will fit a 3/8” ramrod and have no clue where to find the authentic style tow work and ball puller that’ll fit my bore.

 I live a semi-nomadic lifestyle being in the military and do not have the drill presses, lathes, etc. that most members here, nor much experience in this sort of thing.

I figured even a retard like me could sand down the end of a rammer and stick on one of the coils. I just want to avoid the modern style jags as I’m going 100% period correct or as close as humanly possible.

A lathe just makes it easier and more efficient... Literally anything that turns and has a chuck could be used.

Do you own a drill, file, and a set of dial calipers?

Mike

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2019, 08:08:38 AM »
"once it becomes fouled from shooting?"........when does that happen?  I am unfamiliar with this phenomenon.
I wondered who would catch that.

Do you use tight patches and balk combos, do use use good lube, etc.?

Smokey, jump in the time machine and read this thread.  Forget how it starts, the meat is in the middle.  This will give you a fair idea of how Taylor loads.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8604.0


...
I figured even a retard like me could sand down the end of a rammer and stick on one of the coils. I just want to avoid the modern style jags as I’m going 100% period correct or as close as humanly possible.

Go to the classifieds here and wave some money around for a threaded, two-prong tow worm, hand made like most of use who clean with tow actually use.  I think I got mine off ebay.  I'll likely make the next one, but they are readily available from folks who make them, or maybe someone has one they're not using. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 08:17:58 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2019, 09:05:08 AM »
I could chuck it in a normal drill? Seems awkward at best but I could give it a shot...

Offline Mike from OK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2019, 10:32:20 AM »
I could chuck it in a normal drill? Seems awkward at best but I could give it a shot...

Yes. Not ideal and a bit awkward. But as my grandma used to say... Poor folks have poor ways. Lol

Or you can order a hickory ramrod ( with ferrules already attached ) from Track of the Wolf and trim it down to the length you desire.

Mike

Offline Notchy Bob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2019, 08:42:44 PM »
I'll confess, I don't know much about the history of ramrod ferrules.  I could be wrong, but I've associated the tapered ones with earlier styles, as in the flintlock era.  I don't think anyone would fault you for using a straight-sided ferrule with your percussion rifle, although I would venture to say tapered ramrods never went out of style until the late twentieth century, when a great many shooters and gun builders appeared to have forgotten about them.  A wooden rod can be tapered with sandpaper, scrapers, a pocketknife, or even shards of broken glass.  I prefer a block plane.  You can also spend a wad of money and buy a fancy tapering tool, and a lot of the more creative folks have devised tapering gadgets of their own.  Each will tell you his method is the best, and with this in mind, I will stand by my block plane as the sovereign among tapering tools. However, in Life in the Far West, Ruxton described LaBonte working down a spare ramrod or wiping stick of hickory before he "jumped off" into wilderness from Kansas.  You can bet he didn't have any tools more elaborate than a knife and axe.  There are a lot of ways to skin that cat.

You can get the standard straight-sided ramrod tips from virtually any supplier of muzzleloader parts.  If you are determined to have a tapered ferrule, whether your rod is tapered or not, You can get them from Larry Callahan, Brad & Shane Emig, and possibly from Darrin McDonal, although his ad on this forum is several years old.  Mr. Callahan and the Emigs also sell period correct and properly sized gunworms (browse the websites in the links above). Dan Fruth also makes elegant and functional worms, and he is a member of this forum.

As to fitting the ferrule on your ramrod, whether tapered or straight, sharpen up your pocketknife and whittle and scrape away wood until the ferrule presses on snugly.  Fasten it in place with epoxy or hot-melt ferrule cement (available from archery suppliers), taking care to prevent glue from getting into the threaded section, then drill a hole for a brad or 1/16" brass rod to fit snugly as a crosspin.  Smear the pin with epoxy or hotmelt and tap it into place.  Cut off the ends after the glue has cured and file the protruding nubs flush.  I've never found it necessary to peen the ends, but some people do.

It's just a ramrod.  Give it a try.  If you screw it up, your might lose a few dollars but you will have gained some skill and knowledge and an elegant tomato stake.  If it turns out as hoped, you will have a good rod and you still gain the skill and knowledge.

Good luck!

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2019, 08:51:02 PM »
Quote
I live a semi-nomadic lifestyle being in the military and do not have the drill presses, lathes, etc. that most members here, nor much experience in this sort of thing.

Hand tools are a lot more compact and easier to move from place to place, plus they don't make the really fine dust that powered tools do, so they are less messy. I have a similar problem that you do, and while my setup is far from ideal, I've discovered that it is quite possible to do at least simple projects using a folding bench (Workmate 550) and handtools my my apartment kitchen or off the tailgate of a truck.

As for experience, get Aldren Watson's Handtools: Their Ways and Workings and start trying to make stuff. Best way to learn these days...
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2019, 01:15:39 PM »
Thanks, guys.

So the tapered one are earlier styles? I am wondering the most correct for a late percussion era gun. Also then, what type of tow worm (if any) would be correct for the era?

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19523
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2019, 06:39:11 PM »
Jags and patches were often used in the late percussion era. I recall seeing an interesting jag on a ramrod for an original Hawken rifle.
Andover, Vermont

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2019, 10:55:06 PM »
What type of jag? Anyone have a photo?

So, it seems the coil worms were a cheap item traded with the indians, and the tapered style rammer tips are an older style.

Just wondering if anyone has a clear answer, photo, etc. of what was used in the eay to late caplock times?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 12:46:55 AM by Smokey Plainsman »

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19523
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2019, 03:36:12 AM »
Smokey, your questions suggest you think things were done one way at any particular time by a certain class of people. That is never the case for anything. So when you ask “how were things done at such and such a time?”, a better question would be, “what sorts of ways were used to do such and such around this place and time?”

I’m going to point you to a Hawken rifle copy made by Louie Parker here: http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/02/louie-parker-s-hawken.html

This has a copy of one, very unusual jag used by one person on one gun. It is unknown whether this is completely unique but it is surely rare.

I have seen a jag-like end turned or carved on the end of a wooden ramrod.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Notchy Bob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2019, 05:17:40 AM »
I probably started the idea of tapered ferrules being an older style, in one of my posts above.  For clarification, I did not state this as a fact, but simply an opinion I have formed.  I could be wrong, as that happens with alarming regularity.

Anyway...

Most of Smokey's questions pertain to the "late percussion era."  In his book, The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, Major Ned Roberts stated "Back in pioneer times they used "tow" - a short, coarse hemp or flax fiber - for cleaning and oiling the rifle..."  He then went on to give meticulous instructions for cleaning percussion rifles, using cloth patches.  Note that Roberts was born in 1866.  He was not a nostalgic modern shooter writing from conjecture.  He was there, and his book is primary source material.

Roberts also wrote about rods.  A cleaning rod was used in addition to the loading rod.  He described a jag cut into one end of the cleaning rod, exactly as described by Mr. Pierce (above), and a slot of 1/8" by 1" cut in the opposite end "to hold the dampened patches for cleaning the bore after each shot."  I have made a couple of these, years ago, and they worked fine.  Roberts stated that "The loading rod is usually made with the wormer attached to one end."  I don't know that this is referring specifically to the ramrod which was carried under the barrel of the rifle... He may have been describing a separate "range rod" used specifically for loading.  Some worms back in the day were permanently attached to ferrules which were fastened to the rod with a crosspin.  Major Roberts described these in his book, and they are also illustrated in James Goodings's book about Hudson's Bay Company trade guns. 

The worm attached to the end of the loading rod may have been a two-pronged worm, permanently attached, or it may have been one of these:  Covered Ball Puller Screw.  Good old Track still has these available.  I believe I have seen a couple of originals, back in my dim past, but if you need further verification of their authenticity, take a gander at this article about The Jim Beckwourth Rifle.  Image #16 shows the small end of the Beckwourth rifle's ramrod, with a covered ball puller screw exactly like the one from Track.  If I were to actually use one of these for pulling a ball, I would be extremely careful to keep it centered in the bore, as well as I could.  I imagine a hardened steel screw could put a nasty scratch in a rifle bore if it wandered off to the side.  However, I used to have an old English double in 13 gauge that had a screw of this type on the ramrod. It worked for pulling wads, and for retrieving lost patches.

Sorry, but I can't figure out how to post those pictures directly to this forum.  Maybe one of the gentlemen who is not a computer ignoramus would be kind enough to do that.

From all of this, I have deduced the following:  Patches are probably more period correct than tow for cleaning a rifle from the late percussion period, although older materials and techniques may have persisted in remote areas.  A separate cleaning rod with a jag cut into one end and a slot cut into the other is authentic and functional for the late percussion era, and you don't have to fret about ferrules and worms.  The covered "ball screw" is authentic and can be used for retrieving lost patches.  If you must have a worm that screws onto or into your rod after all, I would recommend contacting Mr. Fruth, Mr. Callahan, or Mr. Emig, as suggested in a previous post.

I would strongly recommend that you get a copy of The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, by Ned Roberts.  You may be able to get one through interlibrary loan if you can't find or afford a copy of your own.  Jim Webb also authored and illustrated a book specifically about gunworms.  I think these were recently reprinted... I need to try and find one.  You and I should both search this forum for more information about Mr. Webb's book.  I hear its a good'un.

Good luck with all of this.

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Smokey Plainsman

  • Guest
Re: Coil Worms?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2019, 09:15:28 AM »
Thank you, friends.

Perhaps it wouldn’t be too insane for someone to have used an old ramrod, or repurposes the tips and jags, for use on an Ohio-style percussion rifle?

I really love how they look and they seem like it might be more likely to be used than the coil types for this style of gun? Are there so few original ramrods left on the Ohio rifles that we don’t know what style tips and jags they would have used, if any?

I need to get Jim Webb’s book on gun’s worms, so as to better compute. I already have Ned Roberts book and a re-read is a must.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 09:18:58 AM by Smokey Plainsman »