Author Topic: Another Kibler Colonial..... Some final comments on Jim's kit..... (Read 25967 times)

ScottH · « **Reply #25 on:** July 02, 2020, 06:29:44 PM »

Davec2,
Coming along nicely! Thanks for sharing your progress.

davec2 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 02, 2020, 07:56:49 PM »

Thanks to all....

Smart Dog......this is not just "Very strong Kibler influence in the carving".....I was trying desperately to copy his style EXACTLY. I did not succeed but at least the experience has given me some additional insights into what I like and what I don't like in the way of carving design. And it gave me more practice than I was prepared for trying to execute the design in curly maple !!!

(Especially the four overlapping layers of carving in the patch box !)

smart dog · « **Reply #27 on:** July 03, 2020, 12:41:28 AM »

Hi Dave,
You executed the design very, very well and I think Jim would be flattered and feel you did his art justice. He is one of the few makers I consider artists and he developed a unique style that really adds another "school" to our rich long rifle heritage. You could not pick a better "mentor by example" than Jim. I cannot wait to see the finished product, Dave. I hope all is well with you and your family.

dave (one of the other Daves)

Daryl · « **Reply #28 on:** July 03, 2020, 03:56:19 AM »

Oh YES - waiting with 'abated breath'.

davec2 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 04, 2020, 01:02:21 AM »

Took half the day, but I got all the brass parts final polished. These are taken to a fairly high gloss and I will knock them back some as I do the engraving. I usually take all the brass and steel to this level of polish first to make sure I'm not leaving any "unsightly" scratches or tool marks. I can see anything I don't like in the surface finish better at this point and then, when I take some of the gloss off as I engrave, I know the parts are clear of tool marks......which, like scratches on the stock, always show up at a lousy time in the finishing process

The lock is next in the polishing que.......

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #30 on:** July 04, 2020, 01:16:25 AM »

Beautiful job Dave, on the layout, carving and the tedious job of polishing brass. I have one of these rifles in my future too, at some point.

jerrywh · « **Reply #31 on:** July 04, 2020, 01:28:40 AM »

It is very hard and humiliating to have to compete with geniuses especially when they are young also.

davec2 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 04, 2020, 04:37:15 AM »

This is Jerrywh working calmly on a problem......I know how calmly and capably and precisely......I took the picture......

On the other hand......this is often how I work on a problem.................

And then, when I think I know what it is I want to do.........this happens.....(I'm the guy on the right !)

So Jerry, don't worry.......I don't think any of us are catching up with you !

Taylor,

Working the brass on Jim's kit was really not that difficult. The lost wax castings are first class and do not take a lot of work to prep for the final finishing. I am working on the lock now and it is also going fairly fast. Because the lock plate is milled out of solid stock, there are no casting porosity or shrinkage divots to file out. And the machine finish on the plate is way better than a cast one. And the only cast parts (cock, frizzen, and top jaw) look to be excellent castings as well. I can tell you already, this kit has made me fairly lazy. I have two rifles that Dave Rase just inlet the barrels into stock blanks and they are sitting at the end of my bench. I'm looking at all the inletting and wood removal that needs to be done on each.....and then looking at the Kibler kit I am working on. I think it will take me a while before I have the energy to tackle the rifles from a blank...

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #33 on:** July 04, 2020, 05:33:31 AM »

Dave C., are those fellows playing a motorized version of polo?

davec2 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 04, 2020, 07:08:24 AM »

Craig,
Yes.... that’s an automotive version of polo and the photo is from 1910

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #35 on:** July 04, 2020, 06:37:55 PM »

People had all sorts of fun with those new-fangled motor things! We had an old Packard hood that we towed behind a cut-down VW, going through piney woods in south Florida. Little hard to stay standing with the driver playing crack-the-whip. Surprised we survived our young and dumb years.

I would have loved the "auto-polo".

You have done your usual fantastic magic on that Kibler kit, especially with copying Jim's carvings. He really does have an original style and technique. Good guy to emulate.

davec2 · « **Reply #36 on:** July 04, 2020, 09:36:23 PM »

Oh, by the way, Jim Kibler......if you are following this thread......can you tell me what alloy the frizzen on your locks are cast from? As much as I hate to, I need to anneal the frizzen on this lock to engrave it and I will need to know the alloy in order to get the heat treat right when I re-harden and temper it.

Thanks

davec2 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 05, 2020, 10:58:03 PM »

Started in on polishing the lock. Took some elbow grease with the sanding sticks I use, but had the lock plate done in about an hour:

Flint cock took another half hour to get to this point......

Only the frizzen to go but needed to anneal it first in preparation for both polishing and then engraving:

This is a comparison between the "as cast" part and what I consider to be a sufficient level of polishing:

By the way, this is the little 110 VAC furnace I use for a lot of heat treating and casting larger parts like trigger guards and butt plates. These are fairly expensive new, but they can be had used for a reasonable amount. In this case. I used it to anneal the frizzen. I covered the part in crushed charcoal (to prevent scaling) and ran the furnace up to ~ 1700 degrees F. Then I just turned it off and came back in a few hours to pull the frizzen out.....nice and soft now.

I use this for gold and silver work and it can easily melt brass and copper alloys of all sorts......anything but iron and steel. And, of course, I can use it to case harden or heat treat parts as well.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 06, 2020, 03:39:40 AM »

Are the little crescent cuts made with one gouge or two with different radius?

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #39 on:** July 06, 2020, 02:10:32 PM »

Dave,

You are doint some beautiful work in all regards! You've done an amazing job recreating the carving I did. I don't mind this at all. This is one way we all learn. In fact, I've had it in my mind to try to emulate some carving produced from a few modern makers I admire.

Anyways, keep up the great work and it will be nice to follow your progress.

All the best,
Jim

davec2 · « **Reply #40 on:** July 06, 2020, 05:31:27 PM »

Scott,

The little crescent cuts I made are done different ways as I tried to figure out how Jim did them. The way that worked best was to take a gouge of the correct size and first push it straight into the wood. Then using the same gouge, cut in on an angle to meet the first plunge cut. I don't have too many different size gouges, so I tried to make crescents of various sizes with a small shallow radius gouge.....didn't work as well. If Jim stops back in on this thread, perhaps he will tell us how he really does the crescent cuts.

Jim,

Thanks for the note of encouragement. I'm not so sure about how amazing my recreation is (compared to your original), but I think it will turn out respectably when it's finished. I sent you an email asking about how you stained & finished the original rifle and what alloy the frizzen on this lock is cast from.

Thanks again

Dave C

Marcruger · « **Reply #41 on:** July 06, 2020, 06:05:52 PM »

Typical crisp and detailed work. Very nice sir!

Martin S. · « **Reply #42 on:** July 07, 2020, 06:11:20 PM »

Beautiful work. Can you tell us what kind of sand paper and what grits you are using to polish the brass metal furniture and lock parts?

longcruise · « **Reply #43 on:** July 07, 2020, 08:39:39 PM »

You make this look so easy. I'm going to start in polishing a lock for the first time soon and your work will be the benchmark I strive for.

There's one thing that worries me:

Quote

that I use for making detonators for explosive charges.

davec2 · « **Reply #44 on:** July 08, 2020, 03:33:16 AM »

Martin,

After initial shaping with files, etc., I scrape most of the surface of brass and some steel parts. I use the non sharpened edge of a utility blade. This is a blade being used to scrape brass. I use the same tool for brass, wood, and steel. I stone the two 45 degree edges to a sharp 90 and use both sides of those. Scraping a large butt plate takes about 30 minutes. Scraping a whole stock to get out file, rasp, or carving tool marks takes about an hour...more if there is a lot of intricate carving to scrape around. Then I use sandpaper where ever necessary or useful.

Here I am scraping a butt plate with the angled edge of a box cutter blade. It takes off brass more rapidly and more smoothly than a file and leaves a finish that does not take too much more work with the abrasive paper or sticks. Wood comes of really fast and I have to be careful not to take too much.

As I said, I scrape some steel parts as well. You just have to refresh the edge of the scraper much more often.

After scraping I polish steel and brass with these sanding sticks:

They are plastic and spring loaded to hold 1/4" wide sanding belts of various grits. I have a half a dozen of the sticks and keep one for each of the grits I use. I use them for polishing lock parts, brass parts, barrels, and stock details. When polishing metal I usually use them with a light oil (as in a previous picture). The belts don't load up as much with the oil. Here is a link to some available on Amazon but the sticks and belts are available from many sources including jewelry supply houses:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B079GHS13V?aaxitk=BjhPW.OfNRwSAJO2fZcH6w&pd_rd_i=B079GHS13V&pf_rd_p=591760d1-6468-480f-9b10-0ee9c85706fd&hsa_cr_id=9367417650701&sb-ci-n=productDescription&sb-ci-v=5%20Piece%20Sanding%20Detailer%20Stick%20Set%20with%202%20Extra%20Replacement%20Belts%20Per%20Stick%2C%205%20Grits%20120%2C%20240%2C%20320%2C%20400%20%26%20500%20Grit%20Made%20in%20The%20USA%20for%20Sanding%20Wood%2C%20Metal%20%26%20Plastics%2C%20Long%20Life%20Sanding%20Belts

And here is a set from Rio Grande. They also have better belts.....more expensive but better.

https://www.riogrande.com/product/sanding-stick-assortment-set-of-6/337286

I use the sticks starting at 120 grit and progressing to about 400 grit. Sometimes I stop at 320. On some parts I go to 600. Depends. Also, exercising extreme care about not rounding any edge that isn't supposed to be rounded, I use these on a bench polishing lathe....this one is a 220 grit but I have and use them from 120 to 6 micron:

https://www.riogrande.com/product/dedeco-sunburst-3-radial-disc-220-grit-red/326083

Longcruise:

Don't be worried about the detonator stuff....I work with a lot of high explosives in my other incarnation and I still have all 10 fingers and both eyeballs

davec2 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 09, 2020, 04:39:17 AM »

Finished work on the annealed frizzen and got it polished to the same level as the rest of the external lock parts. Also polished the top jaw, top jaw screw, and gave the frizzen spring a little polish as well.

I have made no real modifications to this kit previously except for removing some additional wood along the full length of the fore stock and reducing the height and thickness of the wrist about an 1/8" in both directions. But then today I made a modification to the trigger. The kit comes with the trigger pinned through the stock and I have no doubt, that if I had left it alone, I would not live long enough to wear any part of that arrangement out. The existing arrangement is historically accurate and perfectly acceptable. However, with all of the other guns I have built, I liked the idea of the trigger "group" coming out of the stock as a unit (sort of like an M1 Garand

) and having the pivot pin for the trigger housed in metal rather than in the wood. Not a requirement. Not historically accurate. Just my personal preference. So I bent up a small piece of sheet steel, silver brazed it to the kit supplied trigger plate, drilled the pivot holes in alignment with the kit supplied trigger, and then excavated a little bit of wood in the trigger mortice to let it all sit snug in the stock. Came out great. Engraving is next.

smallpatch · « **Reply #46 on:** July 09, 2020, 04:53:59 AM »

Dave,
You are a wildman! Did you begin life as an engineer? Very precise, very detailed!

BUT..... why in the world would you polish the hidden portion of a trigger plate? Are you just bored because of the whole COVID thing?
Just kidding Sir! Beautiful work!
P.S. I still think you’re a little crazy.

davec2 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 09, 2020, 10:24:30 AM »

Smallpatch,

My wife thinks I'm more than "a little" crazy.

And no, I didn't polish the back side of the trigger plate.....I just made it look a little on the "shiny" side. I did just tonight engrave both the trigger plate and the trigger though. I don't always do that but I do when I haven't been engraving for a while....gives me some practice before it will be someplace more noticeable. Also gives me an opportunity to cut on the two types of steel Jim uses in this kit, mild steel stock (for machined parts like the lock plate and the trigger plate) and steel castings (cock, frizzen, trigger, top jaw). Came out OK, but I' was glad to have some practice before I jump into the lock, breech plug, etc.

davec2 · « **Reply #48 on:** July 09, 2020, 08:29:23 PM »

Nothing fancy.....just sort of a warm up and test on the materials involved. (The parts are also easily replaced if I mess up too bad.....

Now that I look at the pictures (always a good "truth" check on my work), I can see that I need to do a little refining......

Dave Marsh · « **Reply #49 on:** July 09, 2020, 09:30:55 PM »

I can't imagine what something you would call fancy would look like. Beautiful work and I call that trigger and plate fancy.....

Dave

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Author Topic: Another Kibler Colonial..... Some final comments on Jim's kit..... (Read 25967 times)