Cleaning Between Shots?

[RANGER94]

Hello Everyone - I have been taught to run a wet patch (soapy water), followed by two dry patches after every 3rd shot.  I am not sure why?  I was at the range today shooting my .40 percussion, and all was going well.  After I cleaned after shot #21 (1 wet patch, then 2 dry patches), it took 2 percussion caps to get it to fire.  After I cleaned after shot #24, it would not cook off at all, after numerous percussion caps.  I had to remove nipple and pour powder down the vent to get it to go off.  I strongly suspect the powder in the barrel was damp?

When I got home today and cleaned the gun, I first used the scraper, and there was substantial amount of crude on the scraper.

Am I cleaning to much at the range?  Or am I not drying the barrel enough after cleaning?

Any thoughts or tips would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!!!

Ranger94

[577SXS]

I always run a spit patch down the bore after each shot and a dry patch.

[Mike from OK]

What is your ball/patch/lube combo?

Mike

[RANGER94]

.395 Hornady ball, .015 wonderlube precut patch.  40 grains of 3F.

[Mike from OK]

OK, does it feel like you have to swab after 3 shots? Or is it just a habit?

Mike

[smylee grouch]

Change the lube,measure the patch thickness as those precut wonder lube patches are some times not as thick as advertised. Try some real 18/1000 patches with tracks mink oil lube.

[RANGER94]

OK, does it feel like you have to swab after 3 shots? Or is it just a habit?

Mike

Just a habit!

[MuskratMike]

Ranger 94: On my .40 I seldom wipe between shots but when I do (bench shooting) I use a 2x2 inch square cotton cleaning patch with 90% Isopropol alcohol down the bore followed by 1 clean dry patch, flip that one over and run it back down before reloading. Don't over soak the patch! Hornady .395 round balls with .015 ticking patches with either TOTW mink oil or 100% pure Neatsfoot oil, (note the .015 is measured after greasing the patches as they do swell a few thousandths). The patches I pick up are totally reusable again. 60 grains of Goex 3F for hunting 40 of the same for paper punching and trail walks.

[RANGER94]

Ranger 94: On my .40 I seldom wipe between shots but when I do (bench shooting) I use a 2x2 inch square cotton cleaning patch with 90% Isopropol alcohol down the bore followed by 1 clean dry patch, flip that one over and run it back down before reloading. Don't over soak the patch! Hornady .395 round balls with .015 ticking patches with either TOTW mink oil or 100% pure Neatsfoot oil, (note the .015 is measured after greasing the patches as they do swell a few thousandths). The patches I pick up are totally reusable again. 60 grains of Goex 3F for hunting 40 of the same for paper punching and trail walks.

Don't over soak the patch! - I highly suspect that is what I am doing.  And I just realized I am not wiping the bore down with soap & water, but recently switched to:  Birchwood Casey No.77, Black Powder Solvent.  I am saturating the patch with the No77, running it down the bore, flipping it, running it down the bore again. Then running 2 dry patches (flipping them each time, so about 4 passes). But I am really not paying attention if the last patch is damp.  This is like clock work after every 3rd shot.  Could this be my issue?

Thanks for all of the help here!!!!

[Daryl]

My take on the situation, is that in cleaning, you are pushing fouling down into the breech- which is either a drum or patent breech, where it builds over time then plugs it up.
Your combination is good except for the patch and lube.
With that .005" undersized(smaller than the bore) ball and a 10ounce (some guys get by with 8 ounce denim patch "wet" with your No 77 lube, you should never have to wipe
 during a day's shooting. Try it, you might like it. A number of guys here have done just that, and they like it.
It does not matter which gun I shoot or have shot, .32, pair of .36's, a .40, pair of .45's, 3 .50's, 3 .58's, a .62 , a .69 or pair of .75's, none of them ever  required wiping  during a
day's shooting no matter haw many shots were fired, nor breech scraping when cleaning them.  At all times, the barrels were removed for cleaning, pins or keys.  I've never had guns
with long, delicate tangs.
In all of those guns, picked up fired patches could be used & have been, and more as in the .69, I shot a 2" offhand group at 50yards, using the same 12oz. denim patch for each
shot (about 1990).  Indeed, I have a stack of about 40 reclaimed patches for the .60 and .50 for re-lubing.
So - wiping is not necessary, but the load combination has to be such to allow it. It helps to have a nicley polished muzzle crown, like these.
Machine cut crowns:



After polishing with emery or paper with thumb:
The smoothed corners allow the patch and ball to conform into the bore, so tight loads can be loaded easily
without  cutting the patch.

[Bob McBride]

If you aren’t blowing the crud out the muzzle you’re pushing it down into the breech. Load tight, clean light.

[Don Steele]

Ranger,
As you can see there are differing opinions on the topic of wiping between shots. There's a body of thought that wiping between shots should be done as a safety measure. I've been on dedicated muzzleloader ranges that REQUIRE it. I'm not going to comment on that aspect. There are a couple of things you might want to look at if you're wiping and having problems. The amount of moisture on your wiping patch can definitely be a source of issues. I wipe between shots. My wiping patches are "just damp". Additionally, if you are going to do it be advised that the size of the jag on the end of your wiping rod and the thickness of the patch material you are using to do the wiping are critical dimensions that (if not optimized) can cause you to be simply forcing all the barrel fouling down onto the breech face.
I use a 2x2 piece of thin flannel material for my wiping patch. NOT the same patch I load to shoot with. I also turn down the jag on my rod just a bit. It has been my experience that as purchased, the brass jags I have picked up over the years are all (slightly) different diameters. Some are too large to wipe with as purchased. They force all the fouling down to the breech face and generate the same sort of problem you are experiencing.
Hope this helps.   

[Roughneck]

i have been using a mixture of 1/3 equal parts of isopropyl alcohol, Murphys oil soap & Ballistol as a patch lube.  i also use it to clean the bore after then finish with a patch of straight Ballistol to finish.  i never swab when shooting at the range that can be all day sometimes and doesn't matter which caliber rifle i use also doesn't make a difference what the weather is either.  i switched to this mixture about a year ago and it has made my life much easier.  i used several different patch lubes prior and some were worse then others.  also when using this mixture it takes 2 to 3 cleaning patches at the end of a shooting session to get the barrel clean.  yesterday i was at the range resighting in my .54 cause i put new sights on it.  i used mink oil as a patch cause that is what i use when hunting and i shot right at 30-35 rounds through it trying both .535 & .530 ball with .018 pillow ticking patch.  it all loaded well and had no issues but i did have to run about 5 or 6 cleaning patches down the barrel at the end to get barrel clean.  this is just what works for me but a good friend who builds rifles and is an exceptional shooter told me about it.  i knew back when i did a lot of target shooting i use to see people swabbing after each shot and i never understood why they had to do that or why they would want too.

[rich pierce]

I’m pretty sure all the record holders at Friendship clean between shots. They do a lot of things that most would consider tedious in the quest for best possible consistency shot to shot. Everybody has their own goals and preferences. For many, reducing a 5 shot group by 0.1” at 50 yards is not worth weighing balls and charges, cleaning between shots, using an extended funnel, hammering the ball in, etc. each to his own in their own situation. What works on the target range with the top competitors obviously won’t work hunting (if a second shot is needed) or on a woods walk or rondy situation.

[hanshi]

Daryl has already covered the subject well about wiping vs non wiping.  I find wiping after every shot or every three shots to be very problematic.  For this reason I do not swab the bore at all until I've finished the shooting session.  But the smooth crown & strong, thick patch with the right lube eliminates the NEED for bore wiping.  In the woods it's not that much trouble, but I prefer to shoot rather than tinker with the bore.  Plus, wiping has the potential to cause misfires.

[RANGER94]

Daryl has already covered the subject well about wiping vs non wiping.  I find wiping after every shot or every three shots to be very problematic.  For this reason I do not swab the bore at all until I've finished the shooting session.  But the smooth crown & strong, thick patch with the right lube eliminates the NEED for bore wiping.  In the woods it's not that much trouble, but I prefer to shoot rather than tinker with the bore.  Plus, wiping has the potential to cause misfires.

Plus, wiping has the potential to cause misfires. I am most certain that is what I was doing to myself!

I cannot thank everyone enough for the assistance.  I would have got severely frustrated and probably thrown in the towel!

THANKS!!!

Ranger94

[Daryl]

Don't quit now, you are just embarking on this journey.
Best wishes,

[recurve]

Here's my two cents when I started working up loads in some of my flinters I would get great/almost instant ignition till I wiped/cleaned between shots, every 3rd-5th.   I got better results not wiping, but it was harder to seat the ball, crud ring( I broke a ram rod) all this with goex 2ff/3fff   and 4f in the pan, with gato lube (combo of tallow perfin and bees wax) and thin patches.  It didn't help that I have a notched breach plug and some with patton breaches .  ...So I was pushing the mess/fouling into the area of ignition, wetting it (using 1 patch w windex to wipe fallowed be 2 dry) on a .50 cleaning jag  . 
Then I switched to all mutton tallow 10oz denim (.020) and swiss powders also a .45 cal jag
Now I don't have to wipe (or not as often) less fouling and the jag patch rides over the fouling(.45 in my .50 guns) and then I turn the rod to the right(righty tighty)as it hits the breach plug  and pull(not push )the fouling out  the less I wipe the less I get slow or hang fires

[Mike_StL]

With respect to wiping the bore between shots, so much depends on the breech.  With a flat faced breech, one can wipe between shots and remove most of the fouling.  There will be some fouling build up, but that can be mostly removed by turning the rod clock wise with the patch at the breech.  If the firearm has a chambered breech, then some fouling will always be pushed into the breech and eventually miss fires, hang fires, and failure to fire will occur. 

The shooter should use a shooting procedure that takes into account the type of breech that gun has.  If the gun is a percussion gun with a flat faced breech, then the wiping with a damp patch between shots will keep the fouling consistent with some fouling to build up in the flash channel. At about the 10th or 15th shot, when the damp patch is at the breech a percussion cap should be fired to blow the fouling into the patch to be withdrawn from the barrel.  The same is true if the wiping is done with a wet patch followed by dry patches after the third shot.

The fouling build up is quicker if the gun has a chambered breech.  That has to be cleaned out since the patch on the jag is pushing fouling into the chambered breech with no real way to easily get into that chamber to remove the fouling.  Using the percussion cap to blow the fouling into the damp patch will help.  T/C used to sell a stepped jag to reach into the reduced diameter chamber to clean between shots.  Yes, you still have to take care of the flash channel between the nipple and the powder chamber. Periodic firing of a percussion cap can help keep that channel clear.

The other option to keep the fouling in the barrel consistent from shot to shot is to use the lubricant in the patching material in the patched round ball as the wiping agent.  That way the shot is blowing the fouling at the breech into the barrel and the wet patched ball is pushing fouling down the barrel.  At the range, the excess lubricant won't adversely effect the charge.  You want to use a different, less liquid lubricant when hunting.

[recurve]

 

[bones92]

I have had the same thing happen... after a few cycles of shooting and wiping, the vent hole becomes so clogged with fouling the rifle won't shoot. 

Now I don't wipe between shots, except at the end of a relay when the rifle may be sitting... in NC the humidity can often harden the fouling inside the bore to the point where it's really hard to load.  Sometimes a 5 or 10 minute cease-fire will result in some difficult loading.  However, I may just need to use a bit wetter patch for these circumstances.  I typically just use Ballistol as my patch lube, but I should probably look at some of the suggestions made here.  And my patches are probably a bit too dry (considering that the process of loading sucks moisture out of the patch on the way down the bore).

[Daryl]

Now, I know some guys like dry patching and so be it. I, however don't and my patches are WET- not dripping, but wet right through and it squeezed,
they will drip. This is when using a water-based lube, or an oil or grease. Thus, when I load, the lube in the patch softens the fouling that is in the barrel
making loading quite easy.  Due to having compression of the patch in the bottom of the grooves, the bore is effectively wiped quite clean in the loading
sequence.  Lube is left on the bore by the passage of the lubed patch and all of the fouling from the previous shot, is pushed down on top of the powder.
On the next shot, this fouling is blown out with the patched ball, and indeed, (likely) more lube is squeezed onto the bore which helps soften the fouling
from that shot.  Yes - this is peculation, however the ease of loading the next load must be attributed to something.
If time, 5 minutes, 10 minutes or more passes before loading the next round, yes, it gets crunchy due to the drying of that shot's fouling.  However, that
load is still pushed down but needs a little more force on the rod due to the dried fouling. 
If was shooting in a situation where this waiting to load was normal, I would likely wipe the bore before loading the next load.
If continually loading and shooting, the bore's condition remains the same, shot to shot and great accuracy is the result.
If the bore's fouling is allowed to dry completely, then there is a change in the condition and this will likely effect accuracy in a negative way.

[hanshi]

Another thing to remember is that there is a learning curve to shooting flintlocks and it's little bit steeper than for percussion.  That bit of challenge is what keeps it all interesting.

[Darkhorse]

Hello Everyone - I have been taught to run a wet patch (soapy water), followed by two dry patches after every 3rd shot.  I am not sure why?

Maybe I can shed some light on the reason you were taught to do that. A few decades ago we didn't have some of the patch lubes and other items we now have. The patch lubes used often varied by the part of the country you were shooting in also. The first lube I was taught to use was "Spit", this lube is still used by a lot of shooters to this day and it is excellent at cutting black powder fouling.
Back then, in the early 70's, my main lube was "Crisco". My rifle shot tiny groups with this lube as long as I cleaned my rifle after 3 shots due to the fouling. Once the ball got hard to seat it was time to clean it. I kept a clean patch in my mouth through the first 3 shots, then I would use that wet spit patch to clean the barrel. I'd follow up with at least 2 clean dry patches. Many shooters back then had the same problems regardless of lube so the routine of 3 shots then clean was common.
I've been that route with a .40 caliber Rice barrel and I used LeHigh Valley lube to clean and lube patches. That allowed me to shoot many shots without cleaning. Mr. Flintlocks lube is the closest thing I know of to LeHigh Valley and it works real good. For all practice I lube with Mr. Flintlocks.
You could try some and see if it helps. Won't hurt.

[RANGER94]

Hello Everyone - I have been taught to run a wet patch (soapy water), followed by two dry patches after every 3rd shot.  I am not sure why?

Maybe I can shed some light on the reason you were taught to do that. A few decades ago we didn't have some of the patch lubes and other items we now have. The patch lubes used often varied by the part of the country you were shooting in also. The first lube I was taught to use was "Spit", this lube is still used by a lot of shooters to this day and it is excellent at cutting black powder fouling.
Back then, in the early 70's, my main lube was "Crisco". My rifle shot tiny groups with this lube as long as I cleaned my rifle after 3 shots due to the fouling. Once the ball got hard to seat it was time to clean it. I kept a clean patch in my mouth through the first 3 shots, then I would use that wet spit patch to clean the barrel. I'd follow up with at least 2 clean dry patches. Many shooters back then had the same problems regardless of lube so the routine of 3 shots then clean was common.
I've been that route with a .40 caliber Rice barrel and I used LeHigh Valley lube to clean and lube patches. That allowed me to shoot many shots without cleaning. Mr. Flintlocks lube is the closest thing I know of to LeHigh Valley and it works real good. For all practice I lube with Mr. Flintlocks.
You could try some and see if it helps. Won't hurt.

You are right on the money!  That brought back memories.  My Dad & I would shoot his musket in the late 70s, early 80s.  And he used Crisco. Drove my mother nuts.  I do remember it smelled kind of nice.