Author Topic: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2  (Read 10611 times)

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6813
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2022, 06:25:31 PM »
Hi Richard,
I think I may have an idea what Jim is referring to.  Jim, please correct me if I have this wrong.  The carving on the Turvey closely follows the crease of the baluster wrist.  It stays in the crease or on top of the the round handle and does not drop down the side very much at all.  In that way, it complements the shape of the baluster wrist but does not compete or obscure it. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
    • Personal Website
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2022, 06:56:42 PM »
This is somewhat based on the Turvey gun.  This isn't the only possible good looking design that has the Turvey feel, but it works pretty well.

Jim

« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 08:53:04 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline BJH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2022, 09:46:29 PM »
Anybody interested in seeing the Turvy rifle in the round, it is presently in the Rockford Museum in Lancaster Pa till October. It’s a rather hard to see gun, in Shumways book.
BJH

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2022, 04:27:05 AM »
Thanks guys all good info. Jim I agree with you, this morning I “erased” the drawing on the stock and spent the day sketching new ideas trying to get it to flow better. I had no idea what a Chaka get this area would be. I also had your photo in my file I’ll revisit it. My brother in law lives in Lancaster, maybe a time for a visit.
Thanks guys I really appreciate the help and I’ll post some of the sketches soon.
Cheers,
Richard

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2022, 06:37:57 PM »
I came across some more photos of the build that I thought you may enjoy..
Following Tom Curran’s tutorial on installing a. Horn tip...







Shaping the tang....





Inletting the side plate...










Thanks for looking...Cheers Richard

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3342
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2022, 08:05:52 AM »
You are doing lovely work, Richard.
The exception of course to the "severely plain" I mentioned on the previous page, is the all imprtant shell with supporting pieces behing the breech! This is most important and you have copied this very well!

It sounds like you have the best books for English work.
Must admit that although I have copied Griffin's shells, they do seem a little odd to me!

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2022, 04:37:25 AM »
flatsguide,
Great job on this rifle! Regarding your carving, did you glue your pattern on the wood with some type of water soluble glue. Looks like it stayed put while you carved away. Look forward to more of your posts and photos.
elkhorne

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2022, 06:25:42 AM »
Pukka , Richard?...Thank you!  I agree Griffins shell are pretty strange aren’t they.
Elkhorn, the pattern is transferred onto white latex paint.

A couple of shots of the buttplate...I nearly had to go to the doctor to get my eyes uncrossed after inletting the tang...





Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6813
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2022, 02:09:55 PM »
Hi,
Fabulous work on that butt plate.  That is not an easy task!

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline JBJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2022, 03:03:18 PM »
An all together, a fabulous job! Superb inletting. You hit that screw head dead on to the surface of the butt plate.

J.B.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
    • Personal Website
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2022, 03:36:34 PM »
Fabulous work for sure!

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3342
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2022, 04:11:51 PM »
Impossible to improve on the inletting Richard!

I see your stock has a flat  at the toe.  Is this a bit of Germanic influence?

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2022, 05:28:33 PM »
Pukka, from what little I know, I believe the German influence on 18th century British rifles was very strong. I believe you and others are much more knowledgeable than me and could add to this....
Thanks Richard

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6813
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2022, 06:35:56 PM »
Hi Richard,
Yes, you are correct.  The German influence was such that German barrels were sometimes sought and mounted on English rifles.  Some makers copied the wooden trigger guards found on some German guns. English makers installed sliding wood patch box covers, and some rifles had flat toes and others did not.  However, none I've ever seen had horn muzzle caps or muzzle caps of any sort until half stocks became popular, extensive carving was rare, and they usually mounted fowler like trigger guards with no hand rails except if they copied wooden ones.  Unlike many German rifles, the English versions usually had hook breeches and tangs unless they were breech loaders. The problem is there are not many English rifles from early to mid 18th century to examine and a large proportion of those few are breech loading.  British styles changed over time.  The Chambers kit is for a rifle made between 1730 and 1760 at the latest.  Starting in the 1760s, the rifle would have a flat lock, and by 1770 probably very little carving except at the barrel tang, acorn trigger guard, and more common use of metal scroll trigger guards.  Some would have single set triggers. There would be no checkering on the wrist until the 1770s.  Toward the end of the 18th century, half stocked rifles became popular often with horn nose caps.  Locks were smaller so the flats around them on the lock panels got larger.  On older guns with round-faced locks, the flats were very narrow. 

Richard, were you able to make a trip to see the Turvey rifle at Rock Ford?  It really is more impressive in the flesh.  None of the published photos do it justice.  In Virginia planter Phillip Lee's correspondence during the 1750s, he writes how much he prefers English made rifles particularly by Turvey, to the locally made rifles.  He laments that he cannot find a good one made locally.

dave           
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2360
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2022, 02:58:18 PM »
Richard

Please bring this rifle to Oakridge next year.   I would love to see it in person.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2022, 06:01:28 PM »
Dave, thanks for the condensed version of English rifle building. I find it difficult to remember all of what you stated as my memory is not what it was just a few years ago. There is something that is undefinable to me about English or British rifles and shotguns or fowlers, it is a combination of design and execution that gives an understated elegance that is difficult to achieve. In the latter half of the 18th century and the first half of the 19th century there was so much development in Britain it boggles the mind. I’m 84 but I hope to have the time and health to finish up the projects I have. After finishing my Turvey like rifle I have a 1887 Winchester Winder action that I will build for .22 rf competition. Next is a Rod England Kit of an Alexander Henry .451 muzzle loading target rifle, the same one that Curtis Allison built here. Next is a English sporting rifle around the turn of the 18th- 19th century. It will be a flint half stock. I have the barrel and wood the barrels is twist steel lined with a .62 caliber liner, the wood is a fine piece of English walnut from Turkey. Will leave the end of this month to see the Turvey rifle, unfortunately it is under glass and I won’t be able to handle it.

Hi Art, nice to hear from you! Yes, I’ll bring it along. For those of you that may not know, the mention of Oakridge has to do with the long range matches put on by Rick Weber. The matches are the “Creedmoor 150” long range rifle matches that honor the Creedmoor matches of 150 years ago. They are shot at 300, 600 and 1,000 yards. Two classes muzzle loaders and breechloaders of that time period. By the way, Art Fleener walked away with 2nd place in the muzzle loader class with his original Alexander Henry target rifle...good shooting Art. I won’t have my A.Henry replica target rifle ready by the next Creedmoor match that is on March 25,26. So I’ll be shooting my breechloader .45-70.
For information about the Creedmoor 150 match you can find info on Facebook
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 10:58:04 PM by flatsguide »

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2022, 12:47:37 AM »
About 2/3 of the way done on this side of the carving. My 84 year old eyes are taking a beating, I need to wear optivisors but they don’t help as my eyes lose focus and I have to concentrate to get them back to focus, it is very frustrating. Balsa wood can be found it different degrees of hardness, I use somewhat soft 1/4 inch thick balsa and make different size and grit sanding sticks. You can get right up to the edge of your detail and not worry about denting it as the balsa is so much softer than walnut or maple. I attach the paper with Scotch double sided tape and belt sand them to the desired shape..trying to copy JK’s carving! PS I just looked at the photo a that bulb looking detail looks like $#@*… It may be the camera angle as I don’t recall it looking that bad.
Thanks for looking, Richard









« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 02:19:30 AM by flatsguide »

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2022, 05:27:52 AM »
I had the bright idea to paint the wood white so I would have good contrast with the ink from the transfer. I found the white in to be somewhat of a pain to remove. I removed it with acetone and it came out of the pores of the wood pretty easy with acetone and a wire brush with .003 inch diameter wire. I re-did the transfer on the opposite side and is is very visible, much more so than I thought it would be. Belay the white paint.
Cheers Richard



Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6813
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2022, 02:03:20 PM »
Hi Richard,
That is really nice!  Well done.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2022, 04:15:45 AM »
Thanks Dave and thanks too for the help and suggestions. I’m really enjoying carving, more so than I thought I would...especially when it goes right, lol.
Cheers Richard

« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 04:32:22 AM by flatsguide »

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2360
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2022, 03:09:08 PM »
Looking forward to seeing this in person.

Unfortunately, I do not have an original Alex Henry long range rifle.   The rifle I was shooting at Oakridge was an original Rigby rifle.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
    • Personal Website
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2022, 10:53:48 PM »
Nice job with the carving!

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6813
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2022, 12:18:28 AM »
Thanks Dave and thanks too for the help and suggestions. I’m really enjoying carving, more so than I thought I would...especially when it goes right, lol.
Cheers Richard

Hi Richard,
It is obvious that you enjoy it because you are really good at it.  Your carving is as good as any I've ever seen.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2022, 05:11:17 AM »
Thanks guys! Dave , you are too kind.
Cheers Richard

Online BOB HILL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
Re: Jim Chambers English Sporting Rifle build. Ver.2
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2022, 03:16:58 PM »
Beautifully executed, Flatsguide.
Bob
South Carolina Lowcountry