Author Topic: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun (Read 9988 times)

louieparker · « **on:** March 06, 2021, 06:29:16 PM »

This gun is by Wheeler.. I may have posted this before ?? If so here it is again.. Now lets see yours... LP

WESTbury · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2021, 06:56:05 PM »

A beautiful NW Trade Gun, thanks for letting us admire and enjoy it.

Kent

cshirsch · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2021, 06:16:55 PM »

1855 Belgian trade musket found in a cave in northern New Mexico.

louieparker · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2021, 06:43:30 PM »

Chris thanks for posting this gun.. I sure like it.. Hard to imagine how it was left in that condition. I would thing the damage was done in the cave and then left there....But who knows.. LP

cshirsch · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2021, 07:08:11 PM »

Quote from: louieparker on March 07, 2021, 06:43:30 PM

Chris thanks for posting this gun.. I sure like it.. Hard to imagine how it was left in that condition. I would thing the damage was done in the cave and then left there....But who knows.. LP

The broken cock is probably why it wasn't used much. I needed to have a good trade gun lock to make molds from for my parts business so I cleaned up the 1855. It turned out to be in excellent condition. A friend had the exact same lock so he let me use the cock on his. It dropped right on the tumbler like it was made for it. The castings turned out great. It is a very nice lock. www.texasguntrade.com

Notchy Bob · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2021, 07:42:17 PM »

Outstanding!

I don't own an original, but I have two reproductions. One by North Star West and the other by Caywood. However, I never tire of seeing the old ones.

Louie, I don't think I've ever seen an original in that nice condition. Thanks for showing it!

Chris, I have looked at the Belgian gun and lock on your website. It's great to see these additional detail photos, including the original rear sight. Do you sell those locks assembled and tuned, or can you recommend a lock builder who can do a first-class job with your parts set?

Thanks to both of you fellows for posting!

Notchy Bob

cshirsch · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2021, 09:47:11 PM »

Quote from: Notchy Bob on March 07, 2021, 07:42:17 PM

Outstanding!

I don't own an original, but I have two reproductions. One by North Star West and the other by Caywood. However, I never tire of seeing the old ones.

Louie, I don't think I've ever seen an original in that nice condition. Thanks for showing it!

Chris, I have looked at the Belgian gun and lock on your website. It's great to see these additional detail photos, including the original rear sight. Do you sell those locks assembled and tuned, or can you recommend a lock builder who can do a first-class job with your parts set?

Thanks to both of you fellows for posting!

Notchy Bob

So sorry but I just don't have time to assemble locks. I do not have anyone to recommend at this time either. So sorry.

jdm · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2021, 03:26:03 AM »

This one has been on here before but one more time won't hurt . Maybe some missed it '

This an early Wheeler and sons. War of 1812 period. It looks like it may have had some Native American use.The but is cut out at the comb.

Robert Wolfe · « **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2021, 03:32:32 AM »

Love that percussion hammer and the decoration on it.

lexington1 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 08, 2021, 03:48:28 AM »

Here is mine. I have no idea who made it but it has Birmingham proofs. Also has a sitting fox on the barrel

Sorry for the terrible pictures

lexington1 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2021, 05:24:14 AM »

Here is what is left of a Leman trade gun.

louieparker · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2021, 12:57:38 AM »

JDM and Lexington thanks for posting your trade guns.. I see both of them have smith made hammers.. Some collectors call that a frontier conversion. I don't know if that is true or not, but I like the sound.. I like the Leman parts also.....LP

Hudnut · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2021, 04:50:07 AM »

Quote from: jdm on March 08, 2021, 03:26:03 AM

This one has been on here before but one more time won't hurt . Maybe some missed it '

This an early Wheeler and sons. War of 1812 period. It looks like it may have had some Native American use.The but is cut out at the comb.

It most definitely had Native American use. The I/l\D mark is that of the Indian Department of the British Army. The musket would have been supplied to one of HM Allies during the 1812 War period.
I have one so branded, which came out of Brant County, Ontario, so had probably been issued to one of Joseph Brant's Mohawks.

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2021, 05:14:30 AM »

Louie, this one belongs to my son-in-law Charlie Bourgeois. It has a 3 bolt lock, country type hammer conversion, circle fox on lock and barrel. A couple of mine will be posted tomorrow.

Bob

utseabee · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2021, 05:27:33 AM »

I like these more and more every time I see them. I hope to add one to my collection some day.

jrb · « **Reply #15 on:** March 09, 2021, 04:59:03 PM »

Great thread, Thanks everyone, who posted photos.
In Hanson's "Encyclopedia of the fur trade-Firearms", he shows a surprising number of northwest guns that have the stock comb cut like the one JDM shows in his post above. My first thought was, they did it to tuck the stock up under their armpit to more easily carry the gun while they were on horseback

?
JDM's gun even has the right side of the stock beveled at the cutout area, so it seems that it was not done to stop cheek slap when the gun was fired.?

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #16 on:** March 09, 2021, 05:58:00 PM »

NOT a NW gun, but I believe a trade gun all the same. Definitely made to a particular pattern, take a look at Hamilton's trade gun book and have a look at the 'Duncan" gun. Exactly the same except for some very minor variations in the engraving. You'd think by the mounts this is a 1760's gun, but it isn't. With the Ketland & Co lock it dates probably around 1790-1815, probably for the war of 1812...or not

48" 20 bore barrel. The lock is bridle-less inside and out. probably weighs 5 1/2 lbs or so.

louieparker · « **Reply #17 on:** March 09, 2021, 07:17:24 PM »

Bob ..thanks for posting Charlie's gun.. You are fortunate to have a son in law who shares your interest.
Mike, the butt plate on your gun is very similiar to the grade one guns that Johnson order in the seventeen fifties.. But they had the bow and arrow engraved on them.. A friend is bringing one of those to Princeton. LP

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #18 on:** March 09, 2021, 10:00:59 PM »

Quote from: jrb on March 09, 2021, 04:59:03 PM

Great thread, Thanks everyone, who posted photos.
In Hanson's "Encyclopedia of the fur trade-Firearms", he shows a surprising number of northwest guns that have the stock comb cut like the one JDM shows in his post above. My first thought was, they did it to tuck the stock up under their armpit to more easily carry the gun while they were on horseback ?
JDM's gun even has the right side of the stock beveled at the cutout area, so it seems that it was not done to stop cheek slap when the gun was fired.?

JrB, the Native Americans complained about some Northwest trade guns “didn’t have enough crook to the stock”...! What they were talking about was not enough drop to the butt stock. Some rifles from the
Astor contract of 1829-1835 manufactured at Liege with false British name and proofs were the most complained about. Enclosed are examples in my collection of a model 1833 marked Barnett , and a Tryon chiefs grade. You can see the Tryon has over twice the drop as the Liege gun.

Bob

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2021, 10:06:47 PM »

Sorry should have said trade gun not rifle....!

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2021, 11:17:33 PM »

Quote from: louieparker on March 09, 2021, 07:17:24 PM

Bob ..thanks for posting Charlie's gun.. You are fortunate to have a son in law who shares your interest.
Mike, the butt plate on your gun is very similiar to the grade one guns that Johnson order in the seventeen fifties.. But they had the bow and arrow engraved on them.. A friend is bringing one of those to Princeton. LP

Well shucks. I wasn't planning on going but I will to see the Johnson gun.

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2021, 12:37:10 AM »

Quote from: louieparker on March 09, 2021, 07:17:24 PM

Bob ..thanks for posting Charlie's gun.. You are fortunate to have a son in law who shares your interest.
Mike, the butt plate on your gun is very similiar to the grade one guns that Johnson order in the seventeen fifties.. But they had the bow and arrow engraved on them.. A friend is bringing one of those to Princeton. LP

Louie, I’m right proud of my son in law, he a great friend. He would introduce me to friends by the Indian name he gave me.
“ He who loads gun with sticks.”, now the bug has bit him ....!
Bob

Einsiedler · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2021, 06:01:13 AM »

Thank you gentlemen! I have enjoyed this thread and the photos!

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2021, 03:24:05 PM »

Let’s look at another one, this one a Barnett dated 1833 . It is from the 1829 contract by John Jacob Astor. This contract ran between 1829 - 1835. He had 500 a year made marked Barnett with English proofs . The Native Americans insisted they be marked that way. He had these made at a cheaper price in Belgium, English manufacture would have been more costly .

Steve Collward · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2021, 03:32:35 PM »

Here are some photos of a Wheeler & Son trade gun I posted a few years ago. A similar example is shown in Ryan Gale's "For Trade and Treaty", pages 73-78.

instagram photo full size download

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Author Topic: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun (Read 9988 times)