First time shooting the new Kibler SMR .45

[Daryl]

That's a pretty good analogy, Mike.

[Leatherbark]

At first glance, I thought you had been hunting in the meat market at Safeway!

My boss asked me if I scared everyone in the frozen food department when I fired the gun!

[OldMtnMan]

We were making a joke Daryl. We know it's the ground.

I'd still like to see a group with the .010 patch. Just to compare.

btw..I don't use a patch that thin but i'm the curious type.

Imagine putting together a 3” group and having the 5th shot go inexplicably two feet left. That’s your .010 group.

I don't see that in the first post.

[Daryl]

Had the target been at 50yards or further, it's quite likely.
3" at 25 yards is double what a smoothbore will do. Bunch of smoothbores on this site
apparently do 3" at 50 yards, but none of them have entered the postal matches.

[OldMtnMan]

I'm not saying he should use a .010 patch. I'm just saying i'd like to see him shoot a group like he did on his last shot at the left target. Just to compare. I'm betting it would be better than what he shot at the right target.

Read his first post again.

[Daryl]

I read his post again. Makes no difference. A .010" patch material barely makes a handkerchief for blowing your nose into.
It could be patch material, IF and only IF you were using a bore size, or larger than bore sized ball.

[Big Bubba]

I read his post again. Makes no difference. A .010" patch material barely makes a handkerchief for blowing your nose into.
It could be patch material, IF and only IF you were using a bore size, or larger than bore sized ball.

Yes, the .010 patch was pretty loose. I could thumb start with those patches and there was a lot more fouling compared to the thicker patches. Also the fired patches recovered were in pieces. The bullseye I hit with one of those, is one of those I'd rather be lucky than good shots.

[OldMtnMan]

I read his post again. Makes no difference. A .010" patch material barely makes a handkerchief for blowing your nose into.
It could be patch material, IF and only IF you were using a bore size, or larger than bore sized ball.

Or a tight bore and shallow rifling. There's a reason that Pedersoli recommends a .010 patch for my gun. It was accurate when I tried the .010 patch. I can force a .015 patch down but it requires swabbing after every shot. The .010 patch didn't even blow apart.

I agree a .010 patch work for most guns but a general statement can't be made that it won't work at all or will give a 2ft flyer. Not always.

[smylee grouch]

If that thin patch does actually work in that GPR it has to be because it only has 6 thousands deep BUTTON rifling with no sharp corners. Those thin patches, IMHO just wont fill the groves of just about any cut rifled bore and give any decent accuracy. So if those thin patches work in a GPR that isn't reason to think they will work in a deeper CUT rifled bore. My biased opinion but open to debate. 

[OldMtnMan]

I'm not sure about the grooves. Mike Nesbitt says they're button rifling .006 deep. Lyman says they're .012. I know the .010 patches left a lot of fouling, so they weren't filling the grooves. I can't see me using more than a .015 patch. It went down hard. I can't figure why Pedersoli recommends a .010 patch.

I don't have a way to look at the grooves. They feel pretty shallow at the muzzle.

Sorry Bubba. I'm crapping up your thread.

[Big Bubba]

I'm not sure about the grooves. Mike Nesbitt says they're button rifling .006 deep. Lyman says they're .012. I know the .010 patches left a lot of fouling, so they weren't filling the grooves. I can't see me using more than a .015 patch. It went down hard. I can't figure why Pedersoli recommends a .010 patch.

I don't have a way to look at the grooves. They feel pretty shallow at the muzzle.

Sorry Bubba. I'm crapping up your thread.

That's quite all right. I'm continuing to learn new stuff out of this. Haven't had problems loading even with the .020 patch in mine, it just seems the .018 patch is grouping better. Still need to try out some other charges that were recommended.

[OldMtnMan]

I was going to say the .018 PT patch seems like your best bet.

[Daryl]

BBubba - the tighter the combination that is loadable, the better it will shoot.
In testing my .45 with from .018" patches, .0225" 10ounce denim and the .0235" mattress ticking patches with both .440" balls and .445" balls, the
.445" balls and .0235" patches were the most accurate.  The same phenomenon in my .40 occurred, with the .400" ball an .0235" patch, as it did in
the .69 using .682" balls and .030" and .035" 12 and 14 ounce denim patches.  I will say that with the .682" ball (dead soft) with the .034" patches,
you had to really want them to go in.  A hap-hazzard or lazy attempt would not even get those started into the bore, however, they were/are the most
accurate in that rifle.
My 1970's .50 TC Hawken(s) had .004" buttoned rifling and it shot best with a .495" ball and .022" denim patches & 85gr. 2F GOEX powder.

[Big Bubba]

BBubba - the tighter the combination that is loadable, the better it will shoot.
In testing my .45 with from .018" patches, .0225" 10ounce denim and the .0235" mattress ticking patches with both .440" balls and .445" balls, the
.445" balls and .0235" patches were the most accurate.  The same phenomenon in my .40 occurred, with the .400" ball an .0235" patch, as it did in
the .69 using .682" balls and .030" and .035" 12 and 14 ounce denim patches.  I will say that with the .682" ball (dead soft) with the .034" patches,
you had to really want them to go in.  A hap-hazzard or lazy attempt would not even get those started into the bore, however, they were/are the most
accurate in that rifle.


My 1970's .50 TC Hawken(s) had .004" buttoned rifling and it shot best with a .495" ball and .022" denim patches & 85gr. 2F GOEX powder.

Thanks! I did order some .445 balls to try out. May have to go to the fabric store for thicker patches though.

[Daryl]

10 ounce denim works in every gun I have & even in the 20 bore with .595" balls.

[Leatherbark]

My only problem with my SMR in .45 is that I will have mirage issues if I shoot too quick. Take your time and let the barrel cool between shots.  I alleviated the problem somewhat by installing taller sights and pacing my shots during a match.

One other thing about shooting this rifle offhand.  I found I can be more consistent if I place my left arm far out on the forend as far as possible while shooting offhand.  Holding it back up close to the lock like the target shooters doesn't work for me with that slim 46 inch barrel.  It is light enough to hold way out there.

Bob

[Big Bubba]

Got to do some more shooting today. Groups tightened up quite a bit with the Hoppe's patch lube vs spit patch, and also with the 65 grain charge. I also got better groups with the October Country pillow ticking vs what I had from TOW even though they measured the same .018. The TOW pre-cut patches are very soft and fray easy, which makes centering them and loading more of a pain, which explains why some of the recovered patches the edges were blown off. The October Country patch material is stiff and the daisy cut patches are easier to center and don't fray when loading. I did get the same material as the daisy cut patches to cut at the muzzle. Only shot three of the ones I cut at the muzzle, and they group just as well as the daisies, in fact out of the recovered patches they looked the best.

I also got some promising groups with the .445 balls. I just need to get some better targets that I can see the bullseye. It has been cloudy today and that doesn't help old eyes.

[OldMtnMan]

For pre-cut patches you might have a look at the Bridgers Best shooting patches. A nice stiff tight weave material compared to Octobers.


http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?Cat2Name=Bridgers%20Best%20Patches&SubCat2ID=207&do=list&Cat1Name=Patches

[Big Bubba]

For pre-cut patches you might have a look at the Bridgers Best shooting patches. A nice stiff tight weave material compared to Octobers.


http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?Cat2Name=Bridgers%20Best%20Patches&SubCat2ID=207&do=list&Cat1Name=Patches

Thanks!

[OldMtnMan]

I see the link just brought up the home page. Let's try this.

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=102&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

[Daryl]

These are the patch cutters I use.  Steel ball bearings and bearing races, or arch punches against HDPE (UHMW) block.
The HDPE - UHMW here, is self healing poly, available at plastic's shops. 10" square x 2' thick pieces cost us $10.00 here
and will last about indefinitely.
The only pre-cut patches I bought, were OxYoke patches from Track which were disappointing to say the least. They measured .003" to .004" thinner than what the package said - useless, imho.

[OldMtnMan]

Which is why I don't buy from TOW.

[Big Bubba]

These are the patch cutters I use.  Steel ball bearings and bearing races, or arch punches against HDPE (UHMW) block.
The HDPE - UHMW here, is self healing poly, available at plastic's shops. 10" square x 2' thick pieces cost us $10.00 here
and will last about indefinitely.
The only pre-cut patches I bought, were OxYoke patches from Track which were disappointing to say the least. They measured .003" to .004" thinner than what the package said - useless, imho.

Daryl,
Do you cut your patches larger than what they typically sell for a particular caliber? That was one thing I liked about the .010 patches, they did not have the size for my caliber so, I bought the next size up. A lot easier lining up the oversize patches. I plan on shooting some more just cutting at the muzzle for now, but eventually I want to get me a punch.

I also want to  try the denim out also. Joanns is out of stock so, I'm gone try Hobby Lobby.

[Daryl]

It is easier lining up patches that are actually slightly larger than needed, yes.

The under thickness patches were in OxYoke packaging. That had nothing to do with Trackofthewolf.
They were selling a prepackaged product. Pete - your statement cast negative at Track for no justifiable reason.
It is not their fault OxYoke had someone with limp wrists on the calipers (maybe someone from California?)

[OldMtnMan]

The were selling them Daryl. The Bridger patches are much much better and they should sell them instead. TOW needs to take responsibility for what they sell.

I also have a personal reason for not liking TOW but I won't talk about it on a forum.