Author Topic: How to shoot all day without swabbing?  (Read 6010 times)

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« on: June 05, 2021, 07:47:46 PM »
With the talk about swabbing after shots, or not needing to.

Does anyone use a lubed "wad" under a patched round ball in there rifle?

I searched, but never really found an answer.

Something that would not contaminate the powder when left loaded.

Would card stock under a lubed felt wad work?

Something so that you could shoot all day without swabbing.

How about a wafer of black powder bullet lube?

Thoughts or ideas?
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • Dane Lund
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2021, 08:00:58 PM »
A wad or card is not necessary to make a rifle shoot all day without swabbing.
What is required is a patch, ball, lube combination that cleans the barrel with every shot.
Suggest a ball that is .005Ē under bore size, a patch that will fill the rifling, and a good lube.  I prefer a liquid lube, ( your choice may vary) .
The only time I need to swab, is if a barrel sits and dries out, before loading again.
45 cal Rice barrel, .44Ē ball, .020Ē patch, moose milk lube.  First 7 shots out of a new barrel. No sight adjustment.

In His grip,

Dane

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2021, 09:51:45 PM »
smallpatch, I should have added that I am talking about larger bores that use lots of powder and have more fouling.

Not that you would shoot one all day, just that you could.

Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7677
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2021, 10:52:08 PM »
Same in a large bore. A combo tight enuff to seal the bore so you won't get blow by. The wads might affect accuracy though. Why not try some different combos to see what works and only change one variable at a time. Take notes and save targets.

Offline MuskratMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2196
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2021, 11:12:01 PM »
All my rifles .32-.54 I use a greased pillow ticking patch. I use mostly now days TOF Mink oil or 100% pure Neatsfoot oil. I can shoot any of these all day and never wipe or experience fouling to extent it hampers loading.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2021, 12:37:52 AM »
Ok, how about in a 16 or a 12 bore?

Do you think any kind of extra lube would help wit a 175 grains of FF?
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline ScottNE

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2021, 12:50:57 AM »
With my .54, I find I can shoot all day without swabbing or feeling an significant buildup of resistance to loading, but accuracy drops off severely after 2-3 shots if I donít swab, so I end up swabbing every 2 shots. Something Iím finally going to try and get to the bottom of, hopefully tomorrow.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15077
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2021, 02:49:27 AM »
I tried the wad between powder and patched ball in my .40, .45 and .69. Only the .69 was undistrubed by the wad. The other 2 lost accuracy with the addition
of a wad.  I tested the wad for hunting purposed to see if it was useful to stop powder contamination, not for "extra" lube. There was plenty of lube in the patch
as I use substantial patch thickness just for the cleaning they do on loading and shooting.  I actually found the powder was not disturbed by the lubed patch and
thus did not use this "barrier". The accuracy and cleanliness of shooting did not change.  When we shot the postal matches this last year and a few months, my
winning targets were generally the 3rd to 5th sets of targets I tried. No wiping needed. I think I won 4 or maybe even 5 of those events.

My accuracy stays the same for an entire day's shooting. There is zero fouling buildup as the combinations I/we use clean as we load, every shot.
Dane and Smylee are absolutely correct - in my meager experience.  There was a time, back in 1973 when I first started shooting, that loading
got difficult after a few shots. That didn't last more than a month or so and I discovered a good radiused crown allowed loading combinations that
kept the bore clean, shot to shot without any buildup. Reading Ned Roberts is what turned the light on for me. "Ven you loads der next vun, you cleans
der last vun".  He was referencing "an old Dutch man" I assume.

New Muzzle Crown



Fixed Muzzle Crown



The smoothed crown allows the ball and patch to conform into the rifling to clean to the bottom of the grooves.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 02:55:32 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2021, 03:33:30 AM »
I will get some 100% pure Neatsfoot oil and Mink oil to try.

I have found that the sooner you reload, the less time the crud has to harden.

I use a .725 in my .729 12 bore and a very heavy canvas patch.

I made a .685-.687 mold for my new .69 rifle, 1-90 twist. close to finished.

Then I have a new .58 1-90 twist nearly done. Only have a .570 mold.

And a Forsythe Rice .62, 1-104 twist............[.622 bore] .610 mold, need a .617ish

I may need to order more 2F.
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline Sharpsman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
  • "There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2021, 04:18:46 AM »
Use an under-sized ball and a thin patch!! But eventually you're gonna get a 'build-up' at the breech face and have to scrape it off!!
"There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"

Offline Top Jaw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2021, 02:46:02 PM »
Bsharp - If 175 grains of 2F was not a typo, then yes, seems excessive in more ways than one.   And yes, you are likely outside the limits of no cleaning between shots with fouling from a load like that.   Why so much powder and recoil punishment, when much less would do?  Canít be pleasant to shoot, and is probably causing you to develop a flinch. 

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2828
  • TENNESSEE
    • Black Powder TV
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2021, 03:12:06 PM »
In my experience the prerequisites to shooting without swabbing are a crowned muzzle as preached by Daryl, a lube that will keep fouling soft while also being slick enough to get a near bore sized ball and thick patching to slide down nice and easy. The tight combo cleans the bore when rammed and firing the charge blows the fouling out. Lube is key to me but I have not found a way to shoot 30-40 accurate self swabbing shots without each of the above being in place. Iím sure I can be done differently but this is the method that works for me.

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2021, 05:44:24 PM »
Bsharp - If 175 grains of 2F was not a typo, then yes, seems excessive in more ways than one.   And yes, you are likely outside the limits of no cleaning between shots with fouling from a load like that.   Why so much powder and recoil punishment, when much less would do?  Canít be pleasant to shoot, and is probably causing you to develop a flinch.

It is no difference than shooting a 12 ga with slugs. been doing that since I was 12.

The barrel maker of the 12 bore suggested starting at 150 and work my way up to what ever I could stand. Some of his friends were hunting elk with up to 225 grains.

English Sporter types are a very different breed from a long rifle. I have always thought that hunting loads were 2X the caliber, and MAX is 3X. Never shot the 3X much.

I will have to cut off a wafer of Rooster BP lube and put it over the powder and see what happens.

If lube works for smooth bores, it should help with rifles, maybe.

I make my own crowning tools and have a nice big radius at the bore, it does help with loading.
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15077
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2021, 07:00:11 PM »
I tested my .69 Sporting Rifle to 200gr. 2F GOEX, receiving increased velocities with each additional increased powder charge.
At 165gr.,(6drams) I recorded 1,550fps with a 480gr. .682" round ball patched in 12 ounce denim.  At 200gr., I recorded 1,700fps.
I accidentally double charged my standard hunting load of 165gr., and recorded only 1,770fps for that 330gr. of 2F, thus I assume
my GRRW barrel has fired a few "proof" loads. The patches, incidentally, are reusable with the addition of more lube.
I did not have to "swab" the bore at any time during the testing, or at any time while shooting this rifle.  Accuracy was unchanged,
BTW, from 140gr. to 200gr. in bench shooting.  Using 165gr. 2F, this rifle has produced 1" to 1 1/2", 3 and 5-shot groups at 100 yards,
off the bench. That was my moose load as it matched "Forsyth's" 14 bore drop charts over 100yards distance.
I found in the Lyman BP handbook, a co-relation between velocity and pressure. This means that to produce a certain velocity, requires
a certain pressure using the same grade of powder, but in different bore sizes. By this, I mean that a .50 cal producing 1,700fps with 'X'
grains of 'Y' powder generates 'M' pressure.
A .58 or .60, producing 1,700fps using "Y" powder, generates that same "M" pressure, just as a .69 or .72 making the same velocity with
the same 'grade' powder is generating the same "M" pressure.
Recoil, of course, goes up quite exponentially, however some stock designs are better able to handle it (English and German come to mind).
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12549
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2021, 07:08:23 PM »
BSharp:  you have asked a perfectly valid question and received a couple of excellent answers to it.  And then you tell us what you've been doing since you were 12 which obviously doesn't work, or you wouldn't have to ask.  So why not re-read these answers, give the advice a try, and report.  It seems you are arguing with the guys who have correctly answered your question.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
  • Colorado
    • Verified Ladies  Prime –°asual Dating
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2021, 08:46:11 PM »
225gr powder in a 12bore for elk? Ridiculous!

I use 80gr in a .54 and it kills dead as a doornail.

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2021, 09:25:05 PM »
BSharp:  you have asked a perfectly valid question and received a couple of excellent answers to it.  And then you tell us what you've been doing since you were 12 which obviously doesn't work, or you wouldn't have to ask.  So why not re-read these answers, give the advice a try, and report.  It seems you are arguing with the guys who have correctly answered your question.

OK, I re-read them.

The 12 ga at 12 was a modern shotgun with foster slugs,  just stating that I am use to recoil.

As stated before, I use Large balls with tight patches, and am going to try Mink oil and Neatsfoot 100%.

Nice radius crowns.

I try to be open minded, and expect the same from others, Thanks for reminding me!



Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2021, 09:27:39 PM »
225gr powder in a 12bore for elk? Ridiculous!

I use 80gr in a .54 and it kills dead as a doornail.

That was way up north in Montana, maybe they grow them tougher up there?

Hope that you find a .58 some day!
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
  • Colorado
    • Verified Ladies  Prime –°asual Dating
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2021, 09:46:55 PM »
With that load you should be able to shoot through one and still kill another one.

Saves powder. :)

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2021, 10:01:20 PM »
My fault for not stating all the parameters at the beginning.

It make a difference when using smaller bores and normal powder charges.

Large bores with lots of powder get way more fouling.

Just wonder if any used some type of lube under [or over] a patched round ball in a rifle and if it made any difference in loading the next rounds.
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5314
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2021, 11:38:26 PM »
FWIW, with all calibers from .32 to .54 I find no difference in amount of fouling that needs cleaning out back at home.  But I've been doing as Daryl suggested for years and found it works, every time.  I like liquid lubes for all shooting except for hunting when I use TOW mink oil exclusively.  I was also delighted to find that accuracy was the same at 30 shots as at the first shot, there is no degradation in accuracy with any caliber I shoot using this method.  The loads are tight (for me) but the wood ramrod loads them rather easily and the wood one is what I use at the range.  I have no use for any load I can't safely load with the wooden, underbarrel rod.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12549
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2021, 12:04:36 AM »
I shoot my .62 cal Hawken rifle all day long without cleaning, using 127 gr. FFg GOEX, .021" denim patch soaked to dripping with lube.  But I have no experience with 225 gr. charges in a 12 bore rifle or smoothbore.  Closest I can come is my Brown Bess with .77 cal bore, using 110 gr. FFg GOEX and .735" pure lead ball and .030" patch.  Again, no cleaning all day, loading easily with wooden ramrod.
I am at a loss to understand why you need 225 gr. of powder...I would be happy to be enlightened.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Tennessee
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2021, 12:20:42 AM »
My fault for not stating all the parameters at the beginning.

It make a difference when using smaller bores and normal powder charges.

Large bores with lots of powder get way more fouling.

Just wonder if any used some type of lube under [or over] a patched round ball in a rifle and if it made any difference in loading the next rounds.

Mr. Sharp we have gone over loading and not wiping a couple hundred times here over the last decade it seems.  You might find some wisdom in those old posts as well as the replies to your thread.  It has pretty well been hashed out multiple times. Size of bore is not really a concern.  Some guys say big bores foul more, some guys say little bores foul more. While others load the same, big or small, and when using a properly tight combo with enough lube, get the same results as Taylor and Daryl as well as scores of other shooters.  Sure there are still those who haven't found success without wiping, and there are some shooting circumstances where wiping is necessary-such as competition where immediate reloading is not an option and the humidity is low.

Thin patches hold less lube and are generally not favored by those who shoot more and wipe less.  Perhaps a thicker patch with less ball (but yet a snug fit) would provide enough lube for you to shoot your 12 just as Daryl shoots his 14.

As to mega powder charges, if that's the most accurate charge for the gun then I'm all for it.  Some have used chronographs to show how quickly velocity(power) gains diminish as powder charges climb beyond the "regular" levels usually used in any bore. At some point you're hardly increasing power because the returns diminish so sharply. Best of luck.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2021, 02:57:29 AM »
I am not loading 225 in 12 bore, only 175FF.

This is not about patch thickness, although a thicker patch will hold more lube, agreed!

What about putting a wafer of the harder black powder bullet lube under the patched ball for more lube?

Do you think it would help with loading like a lubed wad in a smooth bore?
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15077
Re: How to shoot all day without swabbing?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2021, 02:58:26 AM »
3 ball sizes, that require no wiping while shooting my .14 bore rifle (.69).

.662" ball, soft or hard lead, no matter.  14 ounce denim patch, or 2/.017 denim patches, lubed with track's mink oil or water based WWWF + a tich of oil, or spit.
.675" pure, or .677" hard lead ball and 14 ounce denim patch, lubed with WWWF or Track's Mink Oil.
.682" pure lead ball and .021" (10 ounce denim) or 12 ounce denim or 14 ounce denim. Any lube.  I measure 12 ounce at .025 with a mic, compressed and .030" with calipers compressed.
I measure 14 ounce denim at .028" with a mic compressed and .034" with calipers compressed.
These combinations all need a short starter.  If you want to load the .682" ball with .030" to .034" patch, you have better be serious about the process. I found the rifle will also do well with the
thinner, .021" denim patching now.  A test target before going hunting one day. I asked if I could use my friend's 100 meter target as he's shot it up with his modern rifle. He acquiesced to my request. In this rifle, spit, Track's mink oil or Neetsfoot oil all shoot to the same poi. Not so with any other rifle I own.


Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V