Author Topic: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!  (Read 12547 times)

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2024, 01:07:42 AM »
Hey All,

Lets see if I can answer these questions. As for updates, I am currently working on springs. I finally have a sear spring I like. Tomorrow I am meeting with the company that is going to cut my blanks for me. I had been stacking the material and milling them for the prototypes. This is way too much work to be profitable with them, so laser cutting it is.......

The frizzen springs are going to be cast for now. Probably milled in the future. Anyhow, I got my castings annealed and built jigs to drill and tap them. The frizzen spring uses a blind screw so I have to tap it from the back side. Always fun!

I have forged a few main springs, but am still dialing that whole process in. I'm also adjusting and machining the bending jigs for this process. What a bear.

So once the springs are sorted out I just have to order the various grades of stock, machine the final parts and start assembling. Sounds easy right!?

As for my timeline, I was hoping to have locks to sell at the Carlisle show. That is unlikely at this point. Not only is my day job getting in the way, what is new? But unfortunately my niece passed away. My wife and son left to be with her family this morning and I am flying out this coming week. I still hope to have a example/sample lock or two for the show. But it is highly unlikely I'll have any to sell by then.

I sincerely appreciate all the interest. It is just a matter of time (where have I heard that before? lol).

Marc, Thank you so much for the compliment! It means a lot :)

Hoping everyone is having a prosperous and healthy New Year.

Best,

Chris E.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2024, 08:34:28 PM »
Chris,
I used 1144 "Stressproof" for tumblers,0-1 for "flies" and sears and 1018 Cold Finished low carbon for bridles and caplock plates.
1075 for internal springs and cast frizzen springs.These material are in locks all over the world and no reported failures. The 1018
can be case hardened if need arises.Screws were 12L14 and bought in whatever diameter the head of the screws were.These are
at least to me,all well proven for locks and triggers.I am now gazing into the twin muzzles of 88 years and hope you can take advantage
of my proven experiences with these materials.The 1144 machines like 12lL14 and is very easy to shape and hardens in oil like drill rod.
Bob Roller

Offline t.caster

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2024, 01:37:19 AM »
Hey Chris, any update on this lock? I'd like to try one of your prototype mainsprings in my Hollenbaugh JP Beck lock! Is that possible?
Tom C.

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2024, 11:50:27 PM »
Hey Tom,

It may be possible soon......

Right now the only thing I lack on the Ditchburn/Beck lock is the mainspring. I've been working on a few ways of going about making them but haven't settled on which option to use yet.

I don't want to do a milled mainspring as there are problems with these types of springs taking a "set" and losing strength.

So I've been working on several different ways of producing a cost effective forged spring. So far I have some good springs, but the "cost effective" element has eluded me. There are still a few things left to try so as time permits in the shop I'll be continuing to work this all out.

Thank you for your interest and I'll keep everyone updated as things come along.

Best,

Chris E.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2024, 02:50:38 AM »
No, there are no issues with a milled spring taking a set.  Taking a set has absolutely nothing to do with the manufacturing process, but rather the material and the hardness it was tempered to.

Since we are about the only ones milling springs in quantities, I can only assume someone has made this assumption in regards to our locks.  The first few locks we made didn’t have quite the right hardness and preload, resulting in a weaker spring.  This was corrected long ago. 

This assessment is coming not only a producer of locks, but also a degreed metallurgist.

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2024, 04:27:30 PM »
The topic here is not anyone else's locks, or design. It is the return of the Ditchburn / Beck lock.

Thank you,

CE


No, there are no issues with a milled spring taking a set.  Taking a set has absolutely nothing to do with the manufacturing process, but rather the material and the hardness it was tempered to.

Since we are about the only ones milling springs in quantities, I can only assume someone has made this assumption in regards to our locks.  The first few locks we made didn’t have quite the right hardness and preload, resulting in a weaker spring.  This was corrected long ago. 

This assessment is coming not only a producer of locks, but also a degreed metallurgist.

Offline AwwNaww

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2024, 07:02:54 PM »
You said there were problems with a milled spring taking a set. You were "correctly corrected"

One of my undergrad degrees is P. Met. Milling has no impact on springs taking a set.

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2024, 08:49:45 PM »
You said there were problems with a milled spring taking a set. You were "correctly corrected"

One of my undergrad degrees is P. Met. Milling has no impact on springs taking a set.

See above. This thread is about the return of the Ditchburn/Beck lock, and how I am building it. If you wish to debate springs, our educations (or anything else) with me, send me a PM. I'll be happy to oblige you there. Alternatively start your own post.

Have a great day,

CE


Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2024, 10:08:52 PM »
If you wish to say something that isn’t correct and can have an impact on how our product is perceived you can expect correction. 

If you are going to post on forums like this, you should expect questioning or dissent.  A new topic or thread is not required as long as the post doesn’t violate forum rules and is on topic.

Have a great day
« Last Edit: April 17, 2024, 12:37:00 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Robby

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2024, 10:32:19 PM »
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2024, 04:54:59 AM »
  Chris keep at it..because a lot of us are looking forward to your lock..!!

Offline Jdbeck

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2024, 05:30:48 AM »
Keep working at it Chris, and you’ll resolve the troubles. I’m stoaked for this lock to hit the market!

Offline t.caster

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2024, 05:09:26 PM »
My little Beck fowler needs a heart transplant! I hope you will put me on the top of the list when they are available!
I appreciate your efforts!
Tom C.

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2024, 05:49:19 PM »
Thanks guys! Also, thanks to everyone who has reached out. I just can't wait to get some more time in on this mainspring design/process.

I am so swamped with "regular" shop work right now. It is a great problem to have but I hate that it takes time away from the Ditchburn.

Best,

CE




Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2024, 07:25:55 PM »
One of the joys of a one man shop ;D ;D.Maybe your little apprentice can help.
Bob Roller

Offline Philip A.

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2024, 09:39:00 AM »
Hey All,

Lets see if I can answer these questions. As for updates, I am currently working on springs. I finally have a sear spring I like. Tomorrow I am meeting with the company that is going to cut my blanks for me. I had been stacking the material and milling them for the prototypes. This is way too much work to be profitable with them, so laser cutting it is.......

The frizzen springs are going to be cast for now. Probably milled in the future. Anyhow, I got my castings annealed and built jigs to drill and tap them. The frizzen spring uses a blind screw so I have to tap it from the back side. Always fun!

I have forged a few main springs, but am still dialing that whole process in. I'm also adjusting and machining the bending jigs for this process. What a bear.

So once the springs are sorted out I just have to order the various grades of stock, machine the final parts and start assembling. Sounds easy right!?

As for my timeline, I was hoping to have locks to sell at the Carlisle show. That is unlikely at this point. Not only is my day job getting in the way, what is new? But unfortunately my niece passed away. My wife and son left to be with her family this morning and I am flying out this coming week. I still hope to have a example/sample lock or two for the show. But it is highly unlikely I'll have any to sell by then.

I sincerely appreciate all the interest. It is just a matter of time (where have I heard that before? lol).

Marc, Thank you so much for the compliment! It means a lot :)

Hoping everyone is having a prosperous and healthy New Year.

Best,

Chris E.

You're using forged mainsprings (I do like that...), but are using cast frizzen springs and plan to use milled ones later. Is it because there is less stress in the frizzen spring? (Besides the ease of manufacture for such an ornate part).

From what I understand, in a cast part there is no grain flow to speak of, in a milled part you have to take into account the direction of the grain at critical stress points (ask anyone who bends sheet metal with a tight radius), and in a forged part the grain flows with the shape of the forging, which is why forging is preferred for high stress parts - and why forging generally allows for slimmer and trimmer springs.
Never seen a steak trying to look like tofu...

Offline Manitou

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2024, 02:52:39 PM »
I, too, am looking forward to the release of this lock.
I used the Robert Ditchburn stain on my first rifle built in 1996 and I still like the look of it today.
I wonder if that stain is still available (probably not). It was a red stain with some black undertones, verry appropriate for the Littlestown school of gunsmithing.
Sorry, no more hijacking of this thread.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2024, 03:32:52 PM »
It’s inspiring to see you develop this new lock and trying out best methods and materials. I have a hunch this lock will be quite popular. It looks really sleek and artistic. Another high quality option in the near future for those who want quality.

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2024, 07:49:45 PM »


You're using forged mainsprings (I do like that...), but are using cast frizzen springs and plan to use milled ones later. Is it because there is less stress in the frizzen spring? (Besides the ease of manufacture for such an ornate part).

From what I understand, in a cast part there is no grain flow to speak of, in a milled part you have to take into account the direction of the grain at critical stress points (ask anyone who bends sheet metal with a tight radius), and in a forged part the grain flows with the shape of the forging, which is why forging is preferred for high stress parts - and why forging generally allows for slimmer and trimmer springs.


Yes, that is correct. I want to use a forged mainspring as they are the heart of the "action/lock." A well made forged spring is a thing to behold. Just play with some of the 2-3 hundred year old well made locks and you'll get goosebumps. At least I know I do!

Also yes, for the frizzen spring I am going to use cast springs for now and probably switch over to milled springs at some point. They don't flex near the distances that the mainspring does, but we'll see 2-3 hundred years from now how they do!

Also, Also yes, you are correct about grain structure. When I first started building locks years ago I poo-pooed the cast springs with their (gasp!) homogenous grain structure. I thought they couldn't be any good. It didn't take long to learn that a properly treated cast spring can be a very good spring indeed. We also have 60 plus years of data in the form of 10's of thousands of cast flintlock mainsprings out there. Do they ever fail? Sometimes, but their track record is nothing short of amazing. Milled mainsprings on the other hand we don't have much data on. Sure you can build up the weak areas on a milled mainspring to keep it from catastrophic, or other types, of failure, but that has effects on the rest of the spring and it's action as well.

There is a mountain of information out there on all of this, and 10X more opinions. So in short, I intend to use a forged mainspring on the Ditchburn lock. If I cannot make that work (economically) I'll go with a well made, properly treated cast spring. And I will never say never on milled mainsprings, but options 1 and 2 come first.

Incidentally I am still working on the design of my forging dies for the mainspring. I made a several prototype springs and am working on a few changes to both the spring and the dies right now. I'd hoped to show up at Kempton with a few, but that may be a bit ambitious! I've mentioned before how much my 40 hour (more like 60! most weeks) job cuts into my lock building time. Who knows, maybe one day I can divert the entire shop toward flintlock work. I'd like that!

Best,

Chris E.



Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2024, 07:51:33 PM »
I, too, am looking forward to the release of this lock.
I used the Robert Ditchburn stain on my first rifle built in 1996 and I still like the look of it today.
I wonder if that stain is still available (probably not). It was a red stain with some black undertones, verry appropriate for the Littlestown school of gunsmithing.
Sorry, no more hijacking of this thread.

I didn't buy that portion of Stan Hollenbaugh's business, but I know he still has some of the stains. You might reach out to him.

Best!

CE

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2024, 07:54:47 PM »
It’s inspiring to see you develop this new lock and trying out best methods and materials. I have a hunch this lock will be quite popular. It looks really sleek and artistic. Another high quality option in the near future for those who want quality.

Thanks for the words Bob! Much appreciated.

Best,

CE

Online mikeyfirelock

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2024, 06:30:55 AM »
  Chris, I applaud your dedication to making a product that you will be proud of , and appreciate your concern for quality.   Your name will be in the lock.  No one else’s.   I emailed you when you first announced your project and expressed my interest in obtaining a lock.  I appreciate your approach and desire to produce a quality product.
 However long it takes to satisfy you is the proper approach .
Taking the time to do it right always is the right choice.
mikeyfirelock………..building rifles since 1972…finally getting fairly good at it.
Mike Mullins

Offline Jdbeck

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2024, 08:33:37 PM »
Any updates?

Hopefully by Kempton or Carlisle I’ll be able to snag one!🤞

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2024, 08:52:42 PM »
The best possible lock will give the performance needed and there is no substitute for quality and I am glad to see this lock being offered.
Bob Roller

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Return of the Bob Ditchburn / JP Beck Lock!
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2024, 12:39:56 AM »
Out of many many thousands ( won’t tell you exactly how many), we’ve never broken a mainspring.  Given all of the potential issues with cast springs it’s silly to think a fully machined spring from bar would be inferior.

This is coming from a a metallurgist.