Author Topic: Ram rod entry pipe help.  (Read 791 times)

Offline Brdhntr

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Ram rod entry pipe help.
« on: October 08, 2025, 05:08:29 AM »
I am finishing up a Chambers English Fowler.
 How do you complete the installation of the entry pipe as seen below? I have inlet the body as far down as otcan go, i think. But the tail sits above the stock. How should i get this inlet.
Many thanks for your advice?

Ben






Offline foresterdj

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2025, 05:44:06 AM »
So if the ram rod pipe is inlayed down so the inside of it is flush with the ram rod channel and aligned for the ram rod to enter (as it seems to be in the pictures), and the finial is above the pre-carved forearm (which also seems to be the case) then I as a rank amateur am thinking the entry pipe needs to be removed from the stock and the finial re-shaped bringing it down to the level that you can then inlay it down flush into the forearm. It is one of the frustrating defugalties of some pre-carved kits.

Offline Tumbledown

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2025, 01:29:50 PM »
Your pipe needs to be inlet deeper. It looks like you sanded the wood down along the pipe, which has negatively altered the profile of the ramrod channel. You should only be removing wood with knives and chisels.

Once the inside of the pipe is flush with the channel, and the center of the tail flush or below the forestock, and all of the other pipes are in, you can shape the fore so you get smooth contours around the entry pipe. You may also need to even out the channel so it doesn't dip at the pipes.


Offline bluenoser

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2025, 03:00:26 PM »
Did you try to shape the forestock before inletting the thimbles?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2025, 04:09:39 PM »
A close-up picture of the front of the pipe in the ramrod groove will help us see what’s going on. Then a second picture with the entry pipe out so we can see how much wood is left between the ramrod hole and the forearm surface.

IF it’s truly inlet all the way down and the tail is still floating, the forearm wood there must be very thin now. In this case I slide the thimble on a tight fitting steel rod. I lay a thin cupped brass shim between the rod and tail. Mount the ramrod pipe tab tightly in a vise with the shimmed steel rod in place. Then I set a concave piece of wood atop the tail and whomp it with a big mallet. Repeat as needed. 
Andover, Vermont

Offline whetrock

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2025, 04:20:27 PM »
A close-up picture of the front of the pipe in the ramrod groove will help us see what’s going on. Then a second picture with the entry pipe out so we can see how much wood is left between the ramrod hole and the forearm surface.

IF it’s truly inlet all the way down and the tail is still floating, the forearm wood there must be very thin now. In this case I slide the thimble on a tight fitting steel rod. I lay a thin cupped brass shim between the rod and tail. Mount the ramrod pipe tab tightly in a vise with the shimmed steel rod in place. Then I set a concave piece of wood atop the tail and whomp it with a big mallet. Repeat as needed.

This is to adjust how "high" the tab is in relation to the tube of the thimble, This reshaping is done OUTSIDE the stock. Don't just put a rod into the tube of the thimble and try to hammer on it like this with it in the stock or it will break the stock.

Offline 2 shots

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2025, 06:39:23 PM »
 i think i would remove the pipe , drill a very small hole through to the barrel channel and measure the web to see how much wood you you  to work with. also check location of forward lock bolt in relation to rod hole.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2025, 07:19:28 PM »
It appears the thimble has already been pinned and the pins appear to be quite low in the stock.  It might be helpful if the OP were to provide a step-by-step explanation of what has been done on the forestock along with the requested pics.  Is it possible the OP inlet the thimble until the tab hit the bbl/bbl channel and was not aware tabs need to be trimmed after inletting?

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2025, 10:43:45 PM »
That ramrod doesn't look like it is bottomed out in the channel. It also seems to be riding the top of the thimble interior which could mean that the thimble is inlet too deep ??? If you have already removed wood from the bottom edge of the stock between the thimble and the trigger guard, then I fear that you may have removed too much. ???  The fix will be different depending on which . Either way, I believe that the kit includes a pattern for shaping the pipe to a profile common for fowlers, and may help with adjusting the angle on the extension before you do the inlet.  Chambers has an instruction video re building the kit which may be of help.
More photos would aid in diagnosing the problem

Offline foresterdj

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2025, 07:50:51 AM »
I cannot discern such precise details from these pictures. BUT, if that ramrod is going through the entry pipe and into the ram rod hole with good alignment, then the pipe is where it needs to be. If this is all true, then remove from stock, make yourself a little jig, work the finial down (it will go a little forward as you do this) then return to stock, inlay the finial and move on to your next step.

Offline JLayne

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2025, 10:52:16 AM »
Did you cut or file down the tab on the pipe that goes into the stock before inletting? If not, it may be too tall and not allowing the pipe to sink down far enough for the tail to be inlet? I watched a video of one being built which suggested the tabs should be cut down or filed to be only about 1/8 inch tall before inletting. I think it was by James Turpin and was a video Chambers used to sell (maybe still does).

Jay

Offline whetrock

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2025, 02:08:53 PM »
Here is a basic description of inletting an entry thimble. This is just describing the general process. It's not addressing the OP's question in particular. If it's useful, great. If not, ignore it.
.............

When the thimble is fully inlet the edge of the hole through the tube should be flush with the groove, so that there is no step between the wood and the hole. (If there is a step, then the rod can/will catch on it, rather than entering the hole.)

It's preferable for the flats and the rings on the tube to be very carefully inlet, with wood kept flush against the flats and cut-outs made for the rings, so that there is no gap at the flats. You must cut into the wood at the edge of the groove to inlet the thimble, but you should maintain the height of that wood so that it is the same as the wood in front of the thimble. There shouldn't be a low spot where the thimble sits. You only cut away enough wood for the thimble to drop down into a thimble-sized hole, with wood flush and touching it all around it.

When inlet, the tube of the thimble should be deep enough to be in line with the wood of the groove on one end, and with the wood of the entry hole on the other. Of course, you cannot see the entry hole end (since it's covered by the tab/extension), so this arrangement is checked all through the inletting process by constantly sliding in and out a piece of metal rod equal in diameter to the inside of the tube. (I use a piece of steel rod about 6-8" long that seems to work okay for this. I don't recall exactly how long. Long enough, anyway.) I say equal in diameter to the inside of the tube because this may not be the same size as the end of your ramrod, since many ramrods are tapered. If you only use your ramrod to check this, you can get a false reading. (Most ramrods on 18th c. and early 19th. c. firearms were tapered.)

Of course, there's the tab/extension on the back side of the entry pipe to think about. On the entry pipe you have here, the tab and the tube are integrated, and that means that the whole thing, including the tab, has to descend together. So that means it is not possible to put the tube all the way in first, and only afterward think about the tab. And you cannot just carelessly cut away a bunch of wood at the top of the entry hole while you inlet the tube. You need that wood to be there, as the tab needs to sit down in it. So the tab and tube have to go down at the same time, with the whole thing dropping in at 90 degrees to the axis of the groove and entry hole. (Some entry pipes are made in two pieces, and some people do inlay those in two pieces and solder them together once they are inlet, but that's a separate story.)

As JLayne said, in order to get all this to go in, it's usually necessary to trim the tab. Tabs are usually made a little longer than necessary. On cast or machined thimbles, they may be about the length needed, more or less. When I make them from scratch, I make them at least an extra 1/2" longer than needed, and trim them when the thimble is completed. Trimming them to 1/8" is plenty long/short as a starting point, but even then, if they start hitting the barrel during the inletting process, then they need to be trimmed some more. It's fine for the final length of the tab to touch the barrel when the tube is fully inlet, but it should not be allowed to keep the thimble from descending into proper position, so check it along the way. When installed and pinned, it should not lift the wood away from the barrel. It is normal to inlet tabs with the barrel in place, so that the barrel can provide strength to the thin wood under the tab. Just don't let a long tab hitting the barrel make you think that it cannot go down further. Take the barrel out and check if needed. Trim the tabs as necessary. It is normal for the tabs to be flush with the bottom of the barrel mortise.

If the barrel channel and rod groove were laid out properly, there should be enough room for a pin to go through the tab without having the pin hole break through the edge of the tab or having it break into the hole through the thimble tube. If the tab ends up being very short, then don't be surprised if the pin needs to hit the slope of the tube, rather than just hitting square on the flat. You just don't want the pin hole to come through into the tube. If you think it is going to hit the slope, you can start the hole and mark the slope with the drill, then stop and pull out the thimble, and cut a small flat spot there where drill needs to enter, so that the slope doesn't deflect the drill. (If drilling brass, then it's helpful to use a small hone to carefully change the inside cutting angle of the drill lip, where the flute meets the bevel, so as to make the drill scrape rather than cut. If a drill configured for steel is used in brass, it can cut too aggressively and too fast, sometimes binding and breaking the drill as it exits. Changing this angle helps keep it from going in so aggressively.) Put the drill in and out frequently, to keep it clear. Pins holes are normally not drilled until the very last step, after the entire thimble is fully inlet and the tabs are cut to proper length.
 
When the whole thing is inlet, then you can take a shop knife or a half-round needle file and carefully cut a very light chamfer around the inside lip of the tube, then polish it with some 400 grit paper. This will help keep the lip from scraping the hickory rod. Also polish the inside of the tube as necessary to be sure there are no rough spots. (If you are making thimbles, then it's normal to do this while making them. But if you are using a thimble that came to you already made, then you may need to do this as a final step.)

Edited: tried to fix typos
« Last Edit: October 11, 2025, 06:15:21 AM by whetrock »

Offline Brdhntr

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2025, 08:35:42 PM »
Excellent! Thank you for going to the effort to write this. Much appreciated!

Offline Waksupi

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2025, 04:50:58 PM »
John Bevins method was to start at the front, and inlet back from there. It works well for me.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline smart dog

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #14 on: Today at 01:48:07 AM »
Hi.
If I remember these pipes are Ted Cash sheet metal versions.  They are thin and springy.  An advantage is that the forward pipes and the pipe portion of the rear pipe match in length and proportions.  Here is how I do this.  I file off the slanted ends of the tab which simplifies inletting a lot.  Next I inlet one of the forward pipes in the rear position.  That takes care of the mortise for the pipe portion and using a forward pipe makes that much easier to do.  Next I grind or file the rear pipe tang into a proper shape for an English fowler.  It should never be the rectangular shape of the raw pipe.  This is how it should look.


When you file it to shape properly, much of your problem with it standing high will go away because most of the is the wide rectangular shape not fitting the profile of the stock.  Chambers tends to profile the stock at this location close to the finished level, sometimes too close making the fit very tricky.  Don't be afraid to sink the pipe deeper than what the current rod diameter will permit because the rod should be tapered anyway.  That taper will allow the rod to find the hole behind the pipe without binding on the pipe.  Finally, the sheet brass is springy and it is good to anneal it but it will dent easily so don't try and hammer it in place.  Be gentle.  Moreover, I find it useful to solder the sharp tip of a 1/16" finishing nail under the pointed end of the tang. I file the top of that nail flat and bend the point downward just slightly.  Then I take an awl and stab a little hole at the end of the tang mortise so when I introduce the pipe to the stock for the final fit, I tap that point down and back into the stock.  That keeps the thin sheet metal held down solidly in the mortise.

dave
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Offline whetrock

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #15 on: Today at 02:52:49 AM »
Here's a thread showing what Dave is talking about with the spike.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=80659.0

Offline Birddog6

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #16 on: Today at 12:55:03 PM »
Pull the entry pipe out where I can see it. I think you have too much meat on the bottom of the
pipe tab. I usually end up with about 1/2 the tab I started with. It is OK if the pipe tabs hit the
barrel. I prefer them not to, but it doesn't hurt anything. IF the pipe tabs are too tall, you grind
them down a Little at a time .  USE inletting black on inletting this pipe & tab to see if the
tab is hitting the barrel. If it hots the barrel it will not go lower. So you take more meat off the tab.

There should not be pin holes in the stock for the pipe yet, the pipe is not IN correct yet. Prob
gonna have holes to fill as you you have the cart in front of the horse.  Slow down.  Save some saw
or sanding dust.

Most likely gonna end up with a flat finale on the pipe because wood was removed there & should
not have been. May need to take a rattail wood file & make the RR groove deeper & drill the RR hole
down some deeper to get the pipe down.

For me, and I have built several dozen rifles, the entrypipe is the most frustrating part of a build.
It looks so simple, yet very frustrating. It always needs to go deeper than I think it does. And I
detest a RR that will not go in the stock properly.

Take the other RR pipes off, don't need them in the way.  Take a 6-8" piece of 3/8 RR or rod & lay
it in the RR  channel. Take a pencil & draw a line even with the RR channel.  Slide the piece of pile
to the Entrypipe. Now when it goes In the entrypipe IF it hits the pipe at the bottom where the tab is, the Entrypipe is not deep enough. Period.  Usually (for me) the finale is canted up & the rear of the pipe needs to go down. It is a angle you cannot See, you have to guess at it.

So when I push the rod in I watch that line on the rod. IF I can see it raise the rod (Looking from
the side of the forestock) or feel it hit in the rear of the pipe, Pipe must go Down deeper into the stock.  It has to slide in smoothly with no obstruction. Any obstruction will get worse when you finish the rifle.

When you get it all down in where you need it, THEN & ONLY THEN do you mark & drill the pin
holes for the pipe.  You can slide a pipe clamp over the barrel & forestock to hold the entrypipe in
place as you drill the holes.  MAKE SURE the 8" piece of RR slides in Easily with the clamp on the
entrypipe BEFORE YOU DRILL. If it won't slide in with the clamp on the pipe. something is Still
wrong & it is not where you need to be with it. 

Also, I never drill the pin holes for the entrypipe or RR pipes thru tabs when in the stock. I drill
to the tab & make a mark ON the pipe tab & remove pipe & drill tab. (Usually use a NEW bit too)
If you drill thru the tab the metal could deflect the tiny bit & it may come out anyplace it wants on the forestock.  Not good. Better to have the pin holes even & parallel with the barrel.

« Last Edit: Today at 04:23:20 PM by Birddog6 »
Keith Lisle

Offline Birddog6

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #17 on: Today at 01:13:29 PM »
And I want the Barrel in & pinned, Tang fitted & vent in, & lock should be in & bolted in place,
trigger in & pinned & working.  Then do the the forestock work such as entrypipes, RR pipes &
muzzle cap.  Always do the important stuff first, then the cosmetics. RR & Entrypipe & nose
or muzzle cap are always cosmetics to me.

I always lay out the barrel against the stock & MARK the barrel where all tabs are going to go.
Can't have a Underlug where a RR pipe tab is. So make the RR pipes even & move the underlugs
to allow for the RR pipe tabs.
Keith Lisle

Offline whetrock

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #18 on: Today at 04:23:20 PM »
Regarding drilling, I might add that it's helpful to put a hickory rod through all the thimbles and into the rod hole and then clamp the thimbles place with the rod in there, before drilling for any of the pins. That way if any of them had been slightly canted up or down, having the rod in there will get them all aligned before you drill.

EDITED (based on Birddog6's comments)
Thanks, Keith!

 
« Last Edit: Today at 07:01:45 PM by whetrock »

Offline Birddog6

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #19 on: Today at 04:32:56 PM »
True.  But if that 8" piece of RR pipe slides thru all pipes easily, the RR will as well, or
until it gets into the stock.

IF the hole is drilled incorrectly, the Ramrod in place could hold the entrypipe up &
not let it be down where it needs to be.  Had that happen couple times. The bit wandered
as the RR hole was drilled.  So I end up redrilling the RR hole after all the pipes were in.

Keith Lisle

Offline whetrock

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Re: Ram rod entry pipe help.
« Reply #20 on: Today at 07:00:53 PM »
True.  But if that 8" piece of RR pipe slides thru all pipes easily, the RR will as well, or
until it gets into the stock.

IF the hole is drilled incorrectly, the Ramrod in place could hold the entrypipe up &
not let it be down where it needs to be.  Had that happen couple times. The bit wandered
as the RR hole was drilled.  So I end up redrilling the RR hole after all the pipes were in.

Yeah, thanks, Keith. I see your point.
I still think using a regular hickory rod is a good idea. But I see your point and agree that, especially if a really stiff rod was used, it could hold the pipes up and keep them from being seated properly.  I revised my comment above accordingly, and just mentioned using a hickory rod.

I've never had to redrill a hole, but I have had to glue sandpaper to one and sand out the hole a little. I did this by tapering about 3" of the end of a rod, and gluing some sandpaper onto the tapered section. The taper helped the rod find the existing hole and follow it in. That was enough to sand out whatever was causing trouble. It only needed sanding for about 6" and then the rod slipped on in as it should.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:06:03 PM by whetrock »