Ferguson Build questions

[4ster]

Hi,

I am in the process of putting together a Ferguson from a Riffle Shoppe kit.  This is my first long rifle build.  I would appreciate insight from other Ferguson builders.

1) I have the worked the stock so it fits the barrel, I am to the point where I am installing the barrel underlugs.  The Rifle Shoppe says that the underlugs should be silver soldered once they are in position.  Is this necessary?  It seems that a good fitting dovetail would be more than adequate.  I've silver soldered a couple of things in this build, but they have been small, replaceable parts.  I am worrying about the amount of heat I would have to apply to the barrel to get solder to flow in the joint. 

2) What size screw did you use to attach the lock to the barrel?  My kit did not come with this screw and it is not in the plans.

3) What did you do to your lock?  My kit was ordered with an assembled lock.  It looks like the internal parts and the frizzen have been hardened appropriately, the springs are tempered.  The lock does ignite a priming charge in the pan.  The lock plate, dog and jaw need polishing.  On an original, were these parts case hardened? 

Thats it for now.  I'll have some more questions about placement of the barrel keys in the stock when I get to that step.  But for now I am trying not to worry about that.

Thanks,
Steve

[keweenaw]

There's nothing like starting with a complicated project!  If you have enough wall thickness on the barrel there's no reason the lugs couldn't be dovetailed in.  Alternatively you can sweat them onto the barrel with any good solder or Brownell's force 44 solder which is pretty high strength.  High temperature silver soldering can result in a scaled bore which is not a great thing.  I have no idea how the originals were done.  You can be sure that the original locks were polished and case hardened.  An 8-32 screw will hold any lock in that is well fit to the lock mortise.

Tom

[4ster]

Thanks for the reply Tom.  

I should have made it clear that the barrel came with dovetails cut for underlugs.  It surprises me that the kit maker states that they should be silver soldered too.  Thanks for the warning about bore scaling.

The Ferguson is unique in that only one screw attaches the lock to to barrel.  8-32 seems under-engineered since it does not have any partners.  Going to the hardware store and picking up an import screw with zinc plating is out of the question.  Who online has a good selection of gun screws? 

Steve

[smart dog]

Hi 4ster,
I built the Ferguson shown below from TRS parts but I used an English walnut blank, not the TRS precarved stock.  The barrel is sufficiently thick to use dovetails for the lugs and rear sight.  The front sight and bayonet lug were brazed on the originals.  I used low temperature solder (Brownell's Hi-Force 44) on mine.  Don't worry about soldering the underlugs as long as they fit tightly in the dovetails.  If not, use the low temp solder like HF-44.  The lockplate should be hardened but TRS uses steel with sufficient carbon so you can simply heat and quench it.  However, I recommend pack hardening (case hardening) because the metal surface is not exposed to air while heating and will not scale.  That is important because you don't want to damage the cast-in engraving.  Be careful when polishing the plate that you don't ruin the engraving.  Use fine stones lubricated with oil and don't worry about a high polish unless you are going to turn the gun into a high-end civilian version.  In that case, polish away and get rid of the markings, then engrave your own design.  For an ordnance gun Just get the rough cast surface smoothed down.  An 8-32 or 10-32 screw is fine.  It is not "under engineered" .  There is little stress on the screw if you inlet the lock properly.  I use the screw blanks sold by Brownell but I file off the slot (which is too wide) and cut my own narrow slots.

[4ster]

Thanks for the tips!

Steve

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Quite a few years ago, I built TRS's Ferguson rifle and used their English walnut stock.  Though the wood was great to work, it was pretty uninteresting for colour and figure.  I built what you might call an officer's model, or civilian rifle.  There was no screw in my set, just as you describe, but I didn't have the plans, so I had to kind of figure it out on my own.  I made a fillister head 10 x 32 screw just as smart dog has shown. 
The underlugs don't need solder unless your fit is poor.  High temperature silver solder is not good here, for reasons already mentioned and others.
I polished and engraved my lock, and yes, some of the engraving needed to be recut.  Original locks and hardware would have been pack hardened.  I don't have those facilities, so I don't do that to my locks - yet!  I'll see if I can find a pic of my rifle to post.

[smylee grouch]

If you think they should be soldered try low temp reg solder. 

[camerl2009]

If you think they should be soldered try low temp reg solder. 

paste solder is what your looking for low temp stuff

[camerl2009]

id like to build a ferguson one day maybe affter the double and a few others

[wetzel]

How do you load it?

[4ster]

The Ferguson is a breach loader.  A fast thread plug runs vertically in the breach and is attached to the trigger guard which acts as a crank to unscrew the plug.  The plug is unscrewed one turn and a ball then the powder inserted in the breach.  Screw the plug closed and you are ready to prime.

At least that is the theory, I've never done it in practice.

[smart dog]

Hi,
The Ferguson system works quite well when properly lubed, the right ball size is used, and the powder load worked out.  It will shoot many shots before needing cleaning and is quite accurate.  4ster, one thing to think about is that all ordnance Fergusons and civilian versions that were used frequently are broken through the lock area.  The stock around the screw breech is very weak, which was the major design flaw of the Ferguson.  On my rifle, I bedded the breech area and lock mortice with Acraglas.  Since I use my rifle a lot, I was not concerned about historical correctness and you cannot see the bedding anyway.  I wanted to protect my expensive investment in time and money.

dave

[4ster]

Dave,

Thanks for the info.  You're right, there is not much stock left after mating the stock to the barrel.  I'll research Acraglas.  I think nearly all of the surviving examples have cracks in the lock area.   

[smart dog]

Hi 4ster,
Good luck with your project.  Taylor and Dave Crisalli (members of this board) built beautiful Ferguson rifles.  Hopefully, they will chime in if you have questions and of course I will help where I can.  I love shooting my Ferguson.  It is the most enjoyable gun that I own.  I also grew up near the Morristown Historical Museum in NJ and was infatuated with the Ferguson since I was 10 years old.  It was a lifelong dream to build and shoot one.  I am also a Scot so Paddy is a hero of mine.

dave

[camerl2009]

Dave,

Thanks for the info.  You're right, there is not much stock left after mating the stock to the barrel.  I'll research Acraglas.  I think nearly all of the surviving examples have cracks in the lock area.   

all theres only 2 that i know of

[4ster]

Dewit Bailey's book on English Flintlock rifles also has "Ferguson Like" guns made before and after Ferguson's patent.  I think I remembered that many stocks of those screw breach guns he describes have problems in the lock area.  Both of the actual Fergusons in his book are broken there.

[keweenaw]

There is no way one can put a hole of the size necessary for the breech screw in a stock and not have it be weak there unless it's made out of kevlar or carbon reinforced polymer!  Just don't fall on it.

[smart dog]

Hi Camer2009,
There are only 2 enlisted men's ordnance rifles known to exist.  However, there are quite a few higher-end  officer and civilian rifles in collections.  Several made for the East India Company also exist.  Most that showed heavy use are broken through the breech area.  If any of you ever visit the museum at Washington's Crossing State Park in NJ, there is a nice civilian Ferguson made by Durs Egg on display.  I think it is part of the Kjell Swann collection at the museum.

dave

[4ster]

So, back to questions about building.  The underlugs are now installed on the barrel.    They were tapped in with a friction fit and I don't think I need to solder them in place, as they are tight.

The Ferguson uses underlugs with barrel keys to secure the stock to the barrel.  The kit come with a roughed out stock with most of the shaping done, just final fitting is necessary.  For the most part this is a good thing but it makes it a bugger to lay out where to cut on the stock for the keys.  Almost nothing is square.  So I can't just lay the stock in a drill press and know that I am getting perfect 90 degree holes when hogging out material in the mortise.

I am wondering what other Rifle Shoppe Ferguson builders did to locate and align the mortices for the barrel keys. 

Since I need to make the mortices a number of times I am thinking of making a jig.  I wanted to attach a drawing here but so far I can't figure out how to post pictures.

Steve

[davec2]

4ster,

I built the pictured Ferguson from TRS parts as well, including a roughed out stock.  As is usually the case, roughed out stocks are often overly "roughed out" in too many areas.  This one turned out to be salvageable, but the process was not easy.  Like you, I had to install the keys on a shaped stock with no flat surfaces or reference planes.  I used a drill press vise mounted on an X -Y table and a relatively good drill press.  I clamped the barrel alone in the vise, top against the back (immovable) jaw and marked the barrel with a marker (witness marks) on either side of the vise.  I then moved the x - Y table to center a 1/16 inch drill in the lug slot.  Without moving the table, I opened the vise, removed the barrel, and put the barrel back in the stock.  The barrel and stock were now placed back in the vise using the witness marks.  The level and barrel rotation were done by eyeball for both the barrel and the barrel / stock placement in the vise.  With the barrel / stock back in the vise, I ran the drill all the way through the stock and the center of the lug slot.  Then, moving the vise left and right of the first center hole, by slightly more than 1/16 inch, I drilled two more holes through the stock.  With these three starter holes for each key, I finished the key slots with cut down saw blades and a very narrow chisel.  (I had not learned the burning trick yet, otherwise, I would have used that process.)  It was a little bit of trouble, but not bad and it came out well.

Good luck with the build.  The rifle is great fun to shoot.

Dave C

P.S.  I used a 10-32 screw to hold the lock in place.

[4ster]

Dave,

Absolutely beautiful work.

Thanks for the procedure for locating the key mortises.  That is better than the one I was thinking of.

I purchased an assembled lock.  The springs, tumbler parts  and frizzen look like they have been heat treated and/or hardened appropriately and the lock fires.  I just got done with an initial clean up of the lock plate and cock assembly.  Other than polishing, did you do anything to these parts?  I've never case hardened anything before but I have an acquaintance that may help.

Steve

[davec2]

Steve,

I heat treated the springs and hardened the frizzen, trigger, and internal lock parts, but did not harden the plate or cock.  Having previously pack hardened a couple of other lock plates, I had had warping problems and did not want to mess up the Ferguson plate until I got the process down.   

If you have not done a search on the Ferguson on this site, I would recommend that you do so.  We have had several discussions on building and shooting this type of rifle.  There are also some good discussions on hardening TRS parts in general.

[4ster]

Dave,

Discovering this site is one of the reasons that I started work on my kit.  It had been sitting in a closet for nearly 6 years.  I was a little intimidated by all the parts and I had no instructions.  And I was a little busier then.

Being able to read other's building and shooting experiences with the search feature got me going.  When I bought the kit there was not as much available information.  (TRS advised I get a .65 cal ball mould and the consensus on the net was that you might get off 5 shots before the gun was jammed from fouling.) 

Thanks to all Ferguson builders who have posted here in the past.  I have read, and re-read every post I can find.  If I ask a question that has ben answered before, I apologize. 

Steve

[4ster]

I was going to drill the vent on the Fergie today.... but something told me to stop and get some advice.

The instructions I have: 1) Drill a 3/32 hole centered on a line extending across the top of the pan.  2) Make a groove with a triangular file on the loading (vertical screw) plug from where the vent contacts the plug to the milled face on the plug.

3/32 seems like a really big vent hole to me.  Does the vent notch in the loading plug's threads seem right?  If so, how deep a groove did you cut?

[davec2]

4str,

I installed a vent liner with a 1/16" vent.  I personally think 3/32 is way too big.  I placed the vent so that it was just slightly forward of the milled flat on the breech face.  No need to file any sort of groove in the vertical breech plug.

Dave C