Author Topic: Plan n Perdy Riffles  (Read 30534 times)

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Plan n Perdy Riffles
« on: September 17, 2018, 10:18:25 PM »
I really enjoyed David’s recent post on a plainly finished mountain rifle, and the many responses.  Mike mentioned a well-shaped but simple Lehigh rifle, Taylor says these plain rifles shoot just as well, and Mike liked the lock work - the components still need to be correct on a plain rifle.  CC Fiddler mentioned big name builders at CLA not wanting to build plain rifles – but my response has been the opposite.  Some called this a rifleman’s rifle, low value but high use and well loved, and function over form.  The profile and slim forend of David’s rifle suggest skill, while the finish is something else - the basics were done well with proper architecture, and the rest left to the buyer.

How many of the alr.com family are members of CLA?  The summer 2017 issue of CLA’s American Tradition magazine had an article on “3 day longrifles” – an example of a rifle built and finished in 3 days, and other plain but attractive longrifles.  It’s not right to reprint that here, but I could post a few rifles and notes from the topic.  I’ve enjoyed plain but pretty rifles from Brooks, Kettenburg, Brennan, Martin, Netting and others.  And they really enjoyed the chance to build a quick rifle.

I also experimented stocking a rifle as an 18th century farm boy, with guidance from a good maker but using common tools on the farm.  Let me know if any of this is of interest?

Here are a couple teaser photos, Bob



Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2018, 10:23:58 PM »
Wondering if I’m seeing a Kettenburg and a Martin there. Would love to see more of both and all the above.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7500
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2018, 11:31:21 PM »
.......
I also experimented stocking a rifle as an 18th century farm boy, with guidance from a good maker but using common tools on the farm.  Let me know if any of this is of interest?

Yes!  Indeed, what Rich said!

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2018, 02:35:07 AM »
Over the years I have built a number of " Schimmel " type guns , "barn rifles" and "poor boys" .   I like the challenge of a full blown Golden age rifle , but I also like the really simple stuff. I would love to see a movement of folks building nicely made very simple pieces other than trade type pieces ,many of which were pretty simple as well , but  more of the one of a kind type. One of the great things about these simple pieces is , that you can do them fairly quickly, if you wish . They don`t take a long time to do like a lot of the more  involved projects do. One thing about building the plainer pieces , anything out of whack shows more ! There isn't the "bling " to distract the eye , like on more fancy pieces . ;)In truth the are FUN!! and functional pieces to build that can draw a lot of oohs and ahs!!  Look at the response to David Rase`s Super cool rifle. These are great starter pieces to get your feet wet , but it is really a treat when the highly skilled makers do them! I can`t  help but wonder if the many , many plain rifles that got "used up" during the period , were stocked up by the apprentices , and as they progressed they worked on the more dolled up pieces. This is conjecture on my part , and I may stand to be corrected . I feel it is plausible , because there would have been a demand , and the more advanced apprentice would have been up to the task.  I    too would like to see more pics of these !! Break em out men ! let`s see your poor boys .  ;D   Thanks Nate

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2018, 05:09:16 AM »
I’ll begin with an original plan n perdy rifle from my first visit to Dixon’s Muzzleloading shop some 25 years ago.  On the wall were several schimmels from the Blue Mountain area.  One stood out with great lines, a full length swamped barrel in curly maple, and suggested Antes or Ferree.  The unfinished stock had faded gray, with a speckled patina on the barrel and converted lock left bright, plus a trigger and plate, guard, one forward thimble and sights.  Rasp marks were present on the stock except where worn smooth, file marks on the trigger guard, and the butt end of the stock was cut square.  Unlike a finished schimmel, this looked like it was going to be a full blown rifle, but somehow got out the door at this stage of construction and never came back.  The profile was taken down to finish level, only requiring a little smoothing or scraping to bring to finished form.  Add a buttplate, sideplate, another pipe or two, carve, stain and finish and it would have been a very fine rifle.

Allen Martin says there is a schimmel inside any fine rifle – it has to start with good lines.     

I picked out a trigger guard that matched, and sketched the few details of trigger, plate and shaping that I could think of.  As soon as I got home, I stocked up a version of this rifle with swamped barrel, a Siler lock modified to look more like an old lock and the few mounts.  It’s an interesting project to stock a plain rifle – there is nothing to focus on other than the shaping and few mounts involved.  Stock was shaped with a #49 cabinet rasp and a coarse rasp with light hand on the trigger guard and barrel.  As the stock would remain unfinished, I swabbed linseed oil over the butt to keep out moisture, on a knot to hold it in place, inside the ramrod hole and on the ramrod so they would not bind.  Dirty hands over time have brought out the curl, and when this rifle is displayed, it provides for interesting conversation – usually “what is it?” or “when are you going to finish it?”


Offline stubshaft

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2018, 07:00:32 AM »
I am a big fan of plain Jane rifles.  I do enjoy rifles with immaculate relief carving and fancy inlays and have built a couple of them over the years.  But the understated elegance of a plain rifle with clean lines has always appealed to me.  My latest project is  Kibler Colonial with a plain grain cherry stock. 
I'd rather die standing, than live on my knees...

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2018, 07:04:05 AM »
Bob, I like the “high line” that extends from the lock panel tails through the wrist.  Would like to see the cheekpiece.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
  • Missouri
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2018, 07:32:46 AM »
That last rifle should be a real conversation starter, Bob!  It's good to see some nice clear photos of it!

Curtis
Curtis Allinson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 07:46:28 AM »
I followed the old rifle, including a fairly long cheekpiece.  Not a great photo, hope you can see it, with an arc to upper rear corner of butt, and similar small arc forward of cheekpiece.


Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 07:17:06 PM »
That linseed oil have great color!  Did that deepen over time or did it look that vivid right away?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2018, 07:44:50 PM »
There are a few rifles at the Museum of Appalachia and the Lenore Museum in Norris Tn. When I first decided to build a rifle I looked at these rifles and was surprised at just how crude and plain they were. I later came to realize a working mans rifle and a prominent man's rifle were very different indeed.



Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2018, 07:54:06 PM »
Bob I remember you sent me pictures of that rifle (think it was the same one with the 'rasp' finish) years ago, modeled after the Dixon gun.  The oiled parts looked one heck of a lot lighter then, as did the wood! 

I'm not really sure how much I buy into the idea of someone using such a rifle - any kind of quickly stocked piece, no matter how basic - with no finish on it for any extent of time.  Just speculating but even the poorest individual would have had access to SOME kind of oil, tallow, grease etc. to provide the most basic weather protection.  Not necessarily any stain, certainly, as that not really a necessity, but heck even tallow or simple wax would offer quite an improvement to simply bare wood.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2018, 08:19:01 PM »
I’d stay away from tallow to keep the critters from gnawing on it. Next thing we will see is simulated rodent teeth marks!  Really great color from the linseed oil.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bart

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2018, 08:32:31 PM »
The second rifle pictured is a Brennan for sure. It's gorgeous, any more pictures of it?

Offline J. Talbert

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2018, 11:55:43 PM »
I'd really like to see more of the 2nd one also.

Give us some more  ;D

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
Thomas Sowell

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2018, 05:23:29 AM »
The teaser pics were rifles by Eric K and Jud B as you noted.  More of them later, if OK.  Ron, I’ll get back to the “farmboy rifle” eventually, too.  Nate, I agree that a plain rifle needs to be well done, as there is little distraction.  Such a plain rifle is a great way to teach design and stocking to someone wishing to learn for the same reasons.

The linseed oil has darkened – probably X 3, partly from dirt picked up in use over 25 years.  Eric – I agree that a rifle with no finish is strange – but there it was on the wall at Dixon’s.  The stock was a soft, faded gray like bare barn wood – could have been some slight finish originally, but no sign after 200 plus years of use, including conversion to percussion.  That’s what struck me, so I copied it as a conversation piece.

I started this post with the surprising original rifle, and discussed this example and other plain rifles with Jack Brooks.  We have also seen several Lehigh styled rifles stocked by a fine maker as Mike mentioned, but not taken as far.  These were finished rifles, not like the unfinished Dixon rifle, but the charm and simplicity were the same.  We also wondered how long it took the old masters to stock a rifle, where could they work fast and where might they slow down?  Henry Leman’s best stockers could assemble one or two trade rifles in a day!  Made neatly with good lines, but specialization and repetition led to speed.  Research in the Moravian records shows a variety of price points for rifles, and descriptions from a plain stock with no mounts to complete and carved pieces. 

So in spring 1995 I talked Jack into stocking a plain ca 1780 Lancaster style smooth rifle, where we would document the work and keep track of his time.  Day one began with a maple plank, custom lock and barrel, sand cast mounts and brass and iron sheet.  First morning the stock was cut to a pattern, breechplug fitted and tang shaped, and the barrel with plug inlet with gouge, chisel and scraper in 4-5 hours.  Stock was trimmed, flipped and ramrod groove established, the ramrod hole drilled, barrel lugs installed and barrel pinned in place.  Lock panels were established and the lock inlet as a unit without disassembly, lock bolts drilled and tapped, trigger plate made and inlet and the tang bolt installed.  End of day one had the lock, stock and barrel together but no trigger - 10 hours work with lunch.

Day two – trigger made, inlet and pinned, layout lines with castoff, buttplate filed up and installed.  Trigger guard casting filed up and installed, a sideplate sketched, cut, inlet and lock bolts finished.  Ramrod pipes were formed, filed and inlet – forward pipes while stock in square, and entry pipe later when stock was shaped.  Sling swivels made and stock shaping began with chisels, plane and rasps from square to final shape.  Day two ended with the rifle mostly assembled and stock shaped from lock back – another 10 hour day.

Day three – shaped the forend, made and installed a two piece nosecap and ramrod entry pipe, front and rear sights made and installed.  Touchhole was drilled and tapered, and barrel signed with maker’s name and year.  Homemade Aquafortis applied and heated, then linseed oil rubbed on.  A tapered ramrod of hickory was made with a reversible worm and iron tip pinned at breech end, stained and oiled.  About midday on the 3rd day, the rifle was ready for the customer.  We spent a bit of time boning the linseed oil into the stock and reviewing the project – photos of the project are included in the American Tradition article.  Barrel and lock were left white as usual and the brass mounts burnished.  A ca 1780’s Lancaster rifle from a blank and castings in two and a half days. 









Not stocked in a day like the Leman trade rifles, but the work was done in a workmanlike manner, and may represent what the old masters did as a rule.  When this rifle is displayed, most really like it and see it as a common “working man’s rifle”.  Jack was asked to build more plain rifles, and I so enjoyed the project that I approached other builders at CLA shows to ask if they would do something similar – if not a 3 day rifle, then the simplest rifle they felt comfortable putting their name on.  Jud Brennan was next up - more to come if interested.  But please consider this approach and the time spent.  How does this compare to how we work?



Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2018, 05:57:17 PM »
Well that pretty much blows my mind.  That’s a level of skill that is rare today. Guess it’s like playing a guitar.  Those who do it every day striving for virtuosity can do stuff others can only gape at.
Andover, Vermont

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2018, 08:03:04 PM »
I don't think I can work a ten hour day anymore...certainly not two or three in a row.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2018, 08:08:31 PM »
So I'm curious about a couple of things Bob.  1st, was all this work done by one guy (Jack) or were you helping with aspects of it?  I notice the word "we" here or there.  Also, was the lock polishing included in the time?  I'm assuming not, assuming he started with one of his locks already complete and ready to go.  I can clearly see the level of barrel finish - it essentially looks fine-filed at most.  How is the brass finished out?

Assuming a gun stocker was beginning any such project with a purchased lock, one would assume that the lock would exhibit a higher level of finish than the remainder of the components.  Today of course, we have to deal with as-cast locks and bead blasting.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2018, 09:40:04 PM »
20 years ago I could build a gun in 30 hours, but not anymore. I have 32 hours in The gun I just finished but I started with a blank with the barrel inlet and RR hole drilled. This has no buttplate either, but I can usually put one on in an hour or less. Never did ten hour days doing gun work, that would take the fun right out of it. ;) These days it's 3 to 5 hours before I can't hang onto the tools anymore and have to quit.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2018, 11:13:21 PM »
  This is interesting. I built a gun in three days once. Wasn't very accurate. But it made a dandy fence post..!!!!   Oldtravler

Offline yellowhousejake

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2018, 02:29:01 AM »
Jud Brennan was next up - more to come if interested.  But please consider this approach and the time spent.  How does this compare to how we work?

I would be very interested to learn more of what you have discovered and pics of any other rifles you know made in this fashion. I have always classified firearms in two categories. Mary Ann or Ginger. Ginger is the pretty one you dote over, but she is expensive and often demanding of your time and care. Mary Ann gets the job done, is reliable and loyal, and has her own beauty because the builder gave her fine lines.

I suspect that in 1770 heading over the mountains, men who wanted a rifle rather than a smooth bore carried (and could afford) a lot more Mary Anns than Gingers. It is my belief they are underrepresented in our historical view.

DAve

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2018, 06:04:50 AM »
This was an experiment to see what might have been standard practice in the old days, and we were all 23 years younger in 1995.  Mike built a gun in 30 hours 20 years ago – that matches this project.  How many new rifles did Christian Oerter with two apprentices complete in a year?  Two a month, plus their repair work?  More, or less?  These men were all under 30 years of age.

Eric – all work was by Jack, other than a friend sooting a few items for inletting.  No lock polishing – but that not done in the old days either, as you note.  The barrel and mounts were fine filed, and the brass burnished.  I hope some discussion will continue on “a workmanlike manner”, details of stocking that save time, tool selection for quick removal and so forth. 

After this very interesting project with Jack, I asked several at CLA if they would try a 3 day rifle – or a simple and quick rifle.  The reply was “Bob, this could be fun”, and a change of pace from their usual high end work.  Jud Brennan was next up.  I had developed a standard barrel and mounts for an early Lancaster rifle, which I sent to Jud with no direction other than have fun and relax – keep as simple as you can.  Here is what arrived a while later.  It’s not fair to “compare work” between builders, as no time limit was set on these other rifles - just plain and pretty.  This was Jud’s “red finish phase”.  Not typically seen on old rifles, but interesting and makes one think of fine musical instruments.















Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2018, 03:27:54 PM »
Talk about the idea of 30 hour guns brings to mind the topic of lighting in the shop. Despite large windows in mine, there are a lot of days that require other light sources in order to accomplish any fine work. I know that repetition builds efficiency, but I think that we are far more fixated on "time" than our ancestors were regarding a given task. I also believe that the Guild system would have instilled a general attitude of quality over time spent .  Their answer to building a gun in , let's say a week , would be to work more hours per day if necessary , however , given the issue of lighting, this was not always practical.   

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2018, 05:42:24 PM »
I think this is fascinating and a simulation of semi production work. It seems likely similar approaches and pace were common practice for contract work, supplying muskets or rifles for the approaching Revolutionary War and in shops supplying contract rifles to the new government. Dickert, Dickert and Gill, Gumph, and Gonter come to mind among others.
Andover, Vermont